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[Archived] Assassination Rogue 5.4

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Guest grimtor

Do you plan on updating your gemming section top MOP? cuz its still cata.

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Do you plan on updating your gemming section top MOP? cuz its still cata.

Yes, I'll go through it today :)

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When trying to test Subterfuge>Shadow Focus, how are you opening on the target? It should be Garrote, Ambush, Ambush... The only time in your rotation that Subterfuge/Shadow Focus matters is your opening attacks, so extensive rotation sequencing for 5+ minutes is a waste of time. Taking Subterfuge and opening with Garrote, Ambush, Ambush gives you VW and more burst at the start due to the damage that Ambush does over Mutillate. The difference is huge.

Using Shadow Focus is the most dps for Assa atm, you should open with Ambush>SnD>Mutilate>Rupture. This is according to SimCrafts results.

Also, the talent choice affects more than your opener, also your Vanish when used as a dps cooldown.

As Assa you should Ambush whenever you use Vanish. With Subterfuge would want to spend 120 energy on 2 Ambushes. Assa however, in the same timeframe (2 GCDs) will spend 55 energy on one Ambush and one Mutilate. Furthermore, to get the most out of Subterfuge you need to pool alot of energy before using Vanish, where Shadow Focus can be used when you are energy starved, which makes it much more comfortable to play with aswell.

I'll side with Toga here. The opener matters very little when you compare it to the rest of the fight. Here are two arguments why I'll keep on advising Shadow Focus as a Tier 1 talent.

  • It sims 2k DPS higher than Subterfuge (at heroic gear levels), so I don't think any opening sequence with Subterfuge is going to make up for that.
  • I've checked the armory of some of the best Assassination Rogues and they're all using Shadow Focus.

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Guest Guest

Lemons, you are right too. Ambush is not as strong as Mutilate for opener, this is because the damage from Mutilate and Ambush is somewhat equal without the increased crit chance talent (Subtlety tree) and Mutilate has the chance to proc Blindside too.

You are right I think Ambush is not quite as good as mutilate however you are incorrect based on experiences that I have at least. Mutilate only does an average of around 10k damage (at 85,non-crit,poisons not included), while Ambush does an average of 16k (non-crit,poisons not included). I don't know if poisons would change this significantly but still ambush is not roughly the same as mutilate in damage, however once you add in 30% of the damage of a dispatch this brings mutilates "potential" damage up to around 19k which is slightly better than ambush which makes it the clear best opener sadly because I prefer ambush.

But I do wish they would at least explain in the guide why mutilate is the opener you should use because they really don't and once I understood that I should add in 30% of a dispatch to the damage it made sense to me, but before that I thought icy-veins was just being dumb suggesting mutilate without a good reason.

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Guest Guest

Hello! I've been reading a lot about this, and it seems to do more damage, but I'm not clear... what about spam shuriken and forget mutilate. You could even go without daggers in Mutilate or Subtlety spec.

Wow, sorry for my english Posted Image

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Guest Darkraina

Hello! I've been reading a lot about this, and it seems to do more damage, but I'm not clear... what about spam shuriken and forget mutilate. You could even go without daggers in Mutilate or Subtlety spec.

Wow, sorry for my english Posted Image

---

I resubmit because I forgot the name Posted Image

You do not need to be published, but I would like to know your opinion on this. Thank you! ^^

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Guest Guest

Quilen statuette is not on the trinket list from archaeology, is this because it's not good enough to consider or?

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Guest Mike

Anji's Keepsake, the level 489 ring, was available for me at only honored reputation with the Golden Lotus, not Revered as the guide states.

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Guest Leorik

Hi. I was just curious. Why are you relying on an ability that procs 30% of the time for additional damage during your opening sequence over the harder hitting Ambush? This is a little baffling to me. Probably because i am a little slow or still too tired at this read or what not who knows. I'd like to understand your choice here but for the life of me i cannot wrap my head around it.

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You are right I think Ambush is not quite as good as mutilate however you are incorrect based on experiences that I have at least. Mutilate only does an average of around 10k damage (at 85,non-crit,poisons not included), while Ambush does an average of 16k (non-crit,poisons not included). I don't know if poisons would change this significantly but still ambush is not roughly the same as mutilate in damage, however once you add in 30% of the damage of a dispatch this brings mutilates "potential" damage up to around 19k which is slightly better than ambush which makes it the clear best opener sadly because I prefer ambush.

But I do wish they would at least explain in the guide why mutilate is the opener you should use because they really don't and once I understood that I should add in 30% of a dispatch to the damage it made sense to me, but before that I thought icy-veins was just being dumb suggesting mutilate without a good reason.

Anji's Keepsake, the level 489 ring, was available for me at only honored reputation with the Golden Lotus, not Revered as the guide states.

Hi. I was just curious. Why are you relying on an ability that procs 30% of the time for additional damage during your opening sequence over the harder hitting Ambush? This is a little baffling to me. Probably because i am a little slow or still too tired at this read or what not who knows. I'd like to understand your choice here but for the life of me i cannot wrap my head around it.

In all honesty, it matters very little what opening sequence you use. Top ranked Assassination Rogues open with Mutilate or Ambush. In any case, I've added a new paragraph below the opening sequence, to explain the differences between using Ambush and Mutilate.

Hello! I've been reading a lot about this, and it seems to do more damage, but I'm not clear... what about spam shuriken and forget mutilate. You could even go without daggers in Mutilate or Subtlety spec.

Wow, sorry for my english Posted Image

I don't think Shuriken Toss is meant to be a replacement for Mutilate.

Quilen statuette is not on the trinket list from archaeology, is this because it's not good enough to consider or?

It wasn't in the list because the official API from Blizzard lists the item with a level of 384, which is lower than the limit I use for my gearing up guides. I manually overrode the item level value in my database and the statuette should now appear properly ;)

Thank you for reporting this!

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Guest WerwolfLeitwolf

Reading over the Tier 1 Talents section, the guide states, "We believe that Posted ImageShadow Focus is the best option here, as it enables you to cast an Energy-free Posted ImageMutilate whenever you get out of Stealth." I'm curious to how this is supposed to work? I can't say that I readily understand because Shadow Focus is only really giving the initial strike, the energy-free bonus. Unless you're opening with a Mutilate instead of an Ambush? Any insight on this?

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Guest Makroshec

@ Guest_Werwolfeitwolf_*

When exiting stealth, (opening or post-Vanish), the Mutilate is free. As discussed previously in this forum thread, the benefits bursting opener damage of Mutilate vs Ambush compared to the sustained advantange of the chosen opener is the issue. In my experience of running tables, raiding, and sim-crafting, I have found that opening with Mutilate (using Shadow Foucs) yeilds the greatest DPS gain, assuming you are hit capped. Reasons for this (by my best knowledge) are:

  • Double chance of applying poisons upon opening.
  • Advantages - apply the DoT quickly, awarding the +5% spell damage (aka poisons) from Master Poisoner sooner. This also increases the poison damage applied by the off hand weapon (if proc'ed), which causes the instant poison damage (since the DoT is applied).
  • This also affects the non-lethal poison application as well
  • Chance of Proccing Blind Side (30% per Mutilate)

  • Faster application of Rupture (or Slice and Dice if you prefer)

  • Shadow Focus > Subterfuge logic is the ability to use post-Vanish Mutilate while energy starved to build combo points to maintain uptime on Envenom
Please note that my opening varies slightly from the guides. My opening sequence is:

(Stealthed) Vendetta / Tricks of the Trade (if applicable), Mutilate, (break stealth) Mutilate, (4-5 cp) Rupture. If Blind Side procs, Blind Side (else Mutilate), (1-2 cp) Slice and Dice. Vanish (Stealthed) Mutilate, (break stealth) Mutilate, Envenom.

From this point forward, built 5 cp (if you have taken Anticipation, preventing cp waste) and pool energy until 100 then Envenom (or Rupture if @ 2 sec), Mut, Mut to maximize the Envenom poison buff (+15% poison application). I use Rupture first over SnD because the energy regeneration and Venomous Wounds proc > +20% poison application chance (1.40 attack speed bonus * 50% application rate = 70% application rate). Plus it allows me to spend 1-2 cp on SnD and get an early Envenom (poison app bonus, SnD 5 cp refresh, and additional hit during Vendetta) over 5cp SnD, 5 cp Rupture (no energy regen while building), then 5 cp Envenom with a 3-4 second loss on Vendetta while pooling energy.

I hope this was helpful.

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Guest WerwolfLeitwolf

Makroshec, I just don't get the free mutilate after breaking stealth, unless this is only something a level 90 has the advantage of? My current Rogue is mid-50's right now.

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Guest Makroshec

Shadow Focus is the level 15 rogue talent (far right) that reduces the cost of all rogue abilities used while stealthed to cost no energy. Some abilities, such as Mutialte, Garrote, or Cheap Shot break you out of stealth after using, as I'm sure you are aware. Since Mutilate is used while still stealthed, its 55 energy cost is reduced to 0 energy, effectively making it a free combo point generating attack. Does this better clarify your confusion, or is there another part that still eludes you?

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Makroshec, I just don't get the free mutilate after breaking stealth, unless this is only something a level 90 has the advantage of? My current Rogue is mid-50's right now.

The guide is written for level 90 players. You can find an explanation for the opening sequence there: https://www.icy-veins.com/assassination-rogue-wow-pve-dps-rotation-cooldowns-abilities#opening

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Guest WerwolfLeitwolf

I think most of my confusion was the way things were worded. I was under the impression that there was the capability of a free mutilate once stealth was gone. I suppose that's what I get for trying to make sense of things while exhausted and such. I appreciate all the help and input.

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Guest Dale

Isn't there some rogue aoe rotation that should be used rather than the normal building up 5 combo points using FOK and finishing with Crimson Tempest? I thought there was some 5 point rupture aoe rotation? If anyone knows or has heard about it, can you please reply back in detail on how this works?

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Guest Makroshec

Isn't there some rogue aoe rotation that should be used rather than the normal building up 5 combo points using FOK and finishing with Crimson Tempest? I thought there was some 5 point rupture aoe rotation? If anyone knows or has heard about it, can you please reply back in detail on how this works?

During a large pull (i.e. when FoK will shine), many mobs will die before the benefit of Rupture fully ticks. The only time I have found it beneficial to rupture prior to FoK / CT rotation is to:

  • pool 5 CP prior to the pull
  • redirect to a mob you feel will last the duration of rupture during the AoE
  • FoK out of stealth (if you have anticipation, this will award you 1 CP after you use your rupture)
  • apply your rupture (regaining the 35 energy immediately)
  • continue to FoK / CT until mob size no longer makes AoE rotation beneficial. Reapplying rupture before this juncture will likely yeild a net loss to dps. (Primarily because the mob will likely die soon and the CP can be better spent on another Crimson Tempest or Envenom to get the application bonus).
I hope this info helps answer what you were inquiring about.

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Guest Tramaturg

In Garrote you say: Need to be stealthed and behind target. You know you can Garrote which side ever? straight to the face if you want Posted Image

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Guest Angil

Hi there

I would suggest to allways open with Garrote and 2x Ambush, because you can get the +10 Energy ticks from the Garrote bleeding effekt aswell.

At first i wasn't sure but I tested it Posted Image

so long

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Hi there

I would suggest to allways open with Garrote and 2x Ambush, because you can get the +10 Energy ticks from the Garrote bleeding effekt aswell.

At first i wasn't sure but I tested it Posted Image

so long

The problem with what you suggest is that it requires people to use Subterfuge as a Tier 1 talent, and this is not an advised talent for Assassination Rogues.

In Garrote you say: Need to be stealthed and behind target. You know you can Garrote which side ever? straight to the face if you want Posted Image

Where is that?

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Hi, thanks for the great guide. I would like to point out that on the Profession perks section you are missing the 480 critical strike rating from Skinning.

Thanks,

Andro

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Guest Guest

For Tricks of the trade marco so Im using one I mostly have when I pvp to

#showtooltip Tricks of the Trade

/cast [target=focus] Tricks of the Trade

/cast [target=Name 1] Tricks of the Trade

/cast [target=Name 2] Tricks of the Trade

/cast [target=Name 3] Tricks of the Trade

I mostly start to focus the MT and tricks him when we count down before pull!

Take of my focus and tricks will now be cast on Name 1 as first if he's close to me if not it will cast on name 2 ect

No need to have so many names. But I mostly have 1 ranged and 1 melee that I know are in the top!

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Guest Malarius

I am in the process of rerolling my main, and have chosen Assassination, but I do have a couple questions that I couldn't find any answer to in the guide.

First, I have been told both, that Venomous Wounds, and Enveom are buffed by mastery, and that they aren't. I would like some clarification.

Second, regarding poisons. I was wondering after reading Mutilates tooltip, "An instant attack with both weapons...", if Mutilate, and Mutilate Off-Hand both have a chance to apply poisons (eg. Each Mutilate has a chance of applying poison two times).

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Guest Rogglesworth

I disagree with the opener suggested in this guide. My personal choice is garrote > SnD then straight into the normal rotation. I haven't done any sim testing but many hours with a target dummy seem to show this giving better burst dps at the start of an encounter. Is anyone else with me?

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