5.4 Destruction Tips and Quirks

[Zagam 1,983]

You sir are going to drive me crazy.

When I stated that CB DoT didn't clip, it was because it required INSANE amounts of Haste procs being up and I said this back in ToT.  I swear I saw a blue post on it as well that it couldn't be clipped and how the damage would be added up together.  You know I trust Blizzard's programming as far as I can throw it, but it appears that the DoT of CB isn't affected by Haste.  This makes the calculation on how much Haste you need to clip it be MUCH lower. 

 

I shouldn't be the one making you insane...it's really not my fault if Blizzard isn't doing what they said they were doing.  They said it couldn't be clipped because of the insane Haste requirement, but they're not making the CB DoT benefit from Haste which throws that theory right out the window.

[Omaric 246]

Don't make me get into an argument about the discrepancies between crazy and insane.  It would be a very complex, but perhaps not difficult, discussion.

 

<3

[Zagam 1,983]

Basically, it looks like they are not programming the DoT to act like a DoT in terms of Haste application but it works like a DoT for Pandemic...they need to decide what it should be doing.  If it benefits from Haste, then it can't be clipped, as stated earlier, unless you nearly global CB which would require BL, TR, and Berserking all together.

 

If they intend to keep CB from benefitting from Haste, then the magic number for you to not clip CB DoT ticks would be to have Chaos Bolts NEVER land within 2 seconds of each other.  Whether this involves a spell weave, a slight delay, or having Haste never bring CB cast below 2 seconds is up to you, but if you have enough Haste effects to bring CB casts down below 2 seconds, then you're going to lose one tick of the DoT.

[Zagam 1,983]

This kinda stuff is enough for me to hang my hat up when Blizzcon is done and I finish this tier.  Staying up on content is one thing.  Theorycrafting is a 2nd.  Being responsible for relaying information, digesting it, and putting it out there and have it be wrong then get blamed for it is just soul-crushing. 

[Soulzar 42]

So GoSac does not really increase CB damage by 15% if this is how it behaves.  Confusing how its base dmg can be calculated by CB's value when cast is completed, but the dot is then modified again based on your existing Spell power when the dot is applied (spell hit).

 

Pandemic on the dot would explain the missing tick in my examples, as second CB hits before second tick.

 

Thanks.  I am no longer confused about my log findings, but disappointing to find out it works this way.  

[Zagam 1,983]

So GoSac does not really increase CB damage by 15% if this is how it behaves.  Confusing how its base dmg can be calculated by CB's value when cast is completed, but the dot is then modified again based on your existing Spell power when the dot is applied (spell hit).

 

Pandemic on the dot would explain the missing tick in my examples, as second CB hits before second tick.

 

Thanks.  I am no longer confused about my log findings, but disappointing to find out it works this way.  

I'm glad you brought it up to clear up just how ridiculously lazy Blizzard is at checking their stupid equations.  How could you NOT let Haste affect a DoT?!?!  Also, GoSac CAN increase CB by 15%.  It can also increase it by less if procs fall off as CB is traveling or it could increase it by MORE if procs happen while CB is in flight!  It's not all negative.  it still should, overall, come out to a 15% net gain.

[Soulzar 42]

So what we have learned today, is to make sure you pop into Meta immediately following casting a CB to buff the dot...

 

oh wait...

[Demyndra 6]

Question regarding opener... I think this was answered somewhere in the 23 pages of this thread, but I digress...

 

I am struggling to get 2nd CB off in time for procs.  I end up anywhere from .5 -1.0 seconds from getting 2ndCB off in proc range.  I tried the suggestion of 3 incins and consuming remaining charges for the 2nd CB, but then I run into not having enough embers to cast the second CB.  So my question is... how y'allz be doin diss???

 

I run as afflic main and destro off, so I sit at the 9778(ish) haste threshold, and I dont have 4pc yet, only 2pc.  I know most people deprioritize haste for destro, so their casts would be a little slower than mine... so why ain't minez fittin?  Also I'm still stuck with T15 trinks... Wush and Breath.

[Zagam 1,983]

Haste isn't going to be a big part of your opener because you should be getting Tempus Repit anyways.  Critting gives you double Embers as well as Immolate Crit ticks.  Your opener should be Conflag x2, Immolate, Incinerate x3.  That will generate at least 5 Emberbits and shouldn't take more than 5 seconds.  Your trinkets should still be running and you'll cast your first CB while other stuff is happening like Immo ticks.  Sometimes you'll need to use another Incinerate to get to another full ember, but do it and then just cast CB.  Practice your rotation in LFR - Malkorok is a great first boss of LFR to test rotations for 10-20 seconds.  Test at a dummy with a friend who has Spell Haste.  There really shouldn't be much complication in getting two CBs off in the first two seconds...just keep working your rotation.

[Soulzar 42]

I personally have been starting with Prepot/Incin at 3 seconds followed by Immolate, 2xconflag, 3incin. CBx2

 

With hero on pull I have time to recast Immolate with LMG/Trinkets after my first 2 CB.

[Zagam 1,983]

If you cast Immolate before Tempus Repit is up, you can do better.  Tempus Repit boosted Immolate increases early proc rate of trinkets.

[Demyndra 6]

I never thought to do conflag x2 before Immolate, I'll test that out to see if it helps me out.  It just kills me to see CB#1 hit for 1.X Million, then CB #2 hit for 700k because of procs dropping just before cast is off.

[Soulzar 42]

Zags, so do you precast anything?  From what you wrote above sounds like you start off with conflag x2 into Immo...Additionally, are you still gaming the 4p on pull or letting it proc on the first filled ember?

 

Dem, do you favor haste or crit more?  When I dropped from a deep crit into more haste (8097) I was finding that my crit RNG was not high enough to reliably get the second ember filled in time.  For this reason I shifted a bit of my haste back into crit and it seems to be more reliable for me.

[Zagam 1,983]

Zags, so do you precast anything?  From what you wrote above sounds like you start off with conflag x2 into Immo...Additionally, are you still gaming the 4p on pull or letting it proc on the first filled ember?

I never gamed the first Ember.  I thought I said back then it would be selfish to have the countdown based around you.  I don't precast anything except Soul Fire as Demo.

[Zagam 1,983]

Alright, analyzed my logs...

 

The absolute threshold for your 2nd Chaos Bolt to land to avoid clipping is 2.000 seconds, down to the thousandth of a second.

 

[19:23:27.638] Zagam Chaos Bolt Iron Juggernaut *1882162*
[19:23:28.804] Zagam Chaos Bolt Iron Juggernaut *94021*
[19:23:29.638] Zagam Chaos Bolt Iron Juggernaut *1761251*
[19:23:29.639] Zagam Chaos Bolt Iron Juggernaut *88377*   (0.001 seconds later! - lost a tick of damage)
[19:23:30.642] Zagam Chaos Bolt Iron Juggernaut *88377*
[19:23:31.645] Zagam Chaos Bolt Iron Juggernaut *88377*
[19:23:32.755] Zagam Chaos Bolt Iron Juggernaut *88377*

 

Note: Haste absolutely does NOT affect Chaos Bolt's tick.  It looks like it varies, but this may be a log issue where there are SO many things going off that things aren't calculated exactly.  Typically, the tick interval for CB DoT is exactly 1.000 seconds, but it ranges up to 1.1 seconds.

 

My log also shows that I accidentally consumed Backdraft for a Chaos Bolt with a proc up and I lost THREE ticks of CB because I fired 3 back to back to back and lost 1 tick then 2 ticks (only got 6 total ticks from 3 CBs).

 

TL;DR:

Haste is NOT affecting the CB DoT.  YOU CAN CLIP IT, but it doesn't happen often. 

You WILL clip if you consume CB with Backdraft, so don't make a habit of it, but it can still be good to consume it to get the Chaos Bolt damage. 

Chaos Bolt's damage is calculated AT THE END OF THE CAST

Chaos Bolt's DoT damage is calculated WHEN THE CB LANDS

 

This means GoSac may not actually increase CB by 15% but more like 13.5-14.0% with the 1-3 ticks you'll likely lose with lots of Haste effects.

 

Thanks to Soulzar for the find, Locky and Kazi for working through the findings with me in Mumble.

[Kazistrasz 216]

Here's one of my own to go along with Zagam's above.

 

[21:28:45.300]  Kazistrasza Chaos Bolt Bloodclaw *2011260*
[21:28:46.256]  Kazistrasza Chaos Bolt Bloodclaw *100547*
[21:28:47.172]  Kazistrasza Chaos Bolt Bloodclaw *2010481*
[21:28:47.329]  Kazistrasza Chaos Bolt Bloodclaw *100879*
[21:28:48.371]  Kazistrasza Chaos Bolt Bloodclaw *100878*
[21:28:49.079]  Kazistrasza Chaos Bolt Bloodclaw *1577457*
[21:28:49.280]  Kazistrasza Chaos Bolt Bloodclaw *79336*
[21:28:50.281]  Kazistrasza Chaos Bolt Bloodclaw *79336*
[21:28:51.265]  Kazistrasza Chaos Bolt Bloodclaw *79335*
[21:28:52.326]  Kazistrasza Chaos Bolt Bloodclaw *79335*

[Demyndra 6]

Zags, so do you precast anything?  From what you wrote above sounds like you start off with conflag x2 into Immo...Additionally, are you still gaming the 4p on pull or letting it proc on the first filled ember?

 

Dem, do you favor haste or crit more?  When I dropped from a deep crit into more haste (8097) I was finding that my crit RNG was not high enough to reliably get the second ember filled in time.  For this reason I shifted a bit of my haste back into crit and it seems to be more reliable for me.

 

I favor haste more, simply because I use affliction for my main spec and we don't have a crit buff in our raid (no banners either).... we do have three stormlashes though! :)

 

I tested this out on a dummy for quite awhile last night and found that with conflag x2 -> immo, I was able to get both CBs off in time with enough embers much more regularly than immo -> conflag x2.  Which I guess makes sense because of the 2pc crit bonus to Immo & Incin.  Also, I tunneled single target as to not skew/cheese ember generation with RoF or FnB Immo.

[lockscifer 0]

finally decided to play destruction, although not like I think it will be better for raid.
The guides here are already helping me and I hope to be playing the saturday reasonable.
I saw some comments and I was half in doubt about the parts of tier 16 and the bonus, but as I only have 2 parts, chest flex (i can change with a normal) and a glove normal (i can change with a warforged), should I change it?

[vladMTL 1]

hello

 

regarding openers, i'd love to pick your brains about opening on shamans hc as destro since i consider mine to be sub optimal to say the least or so i think but proly because i compare my dps right there with the mage's or the boomer's which might not be so very intelligent ... regardless, please help me out with this !

 

thank you !

 

o/

[Zagam 1,983]

finally decided to play destruction, although not like I think it will be better for raid.

The guides here are already helping me and I hope to be playing the saturday reasonable.

I saw some comments and I was half in doubt about the parts of tier 16 and the bonus, but as I only have 2 parts, chest flex (i can change with a normal) and a glove normal (i can change with a warforged), should I change it?

2pc sucks.  Your decision what you wear.

 

hello

 

regarding openers, i'd love to pick your brains about opening on shamans hc as destro since i consider mine to be sub optimal to say the least or so i think but proly because i compare my dps right there with the mage's or the boomer's which might not be so very intelligent ... regardless, please help me out with this !

 

thank you !

 

o/

Immolate all the things, FnB Conflag, Incinerate spam.  Use Havoc to weave in two CBs when procs are up.  Should be able to open to 1.5-2.0M DPS.

[Soulzar 42]

Alright, analyzed my logs...

 

TL;DR:

Haste is NOT affecting the CB DoT.  YOU CAN CLIP IT, but it doesn't happen often. 

You WILL clip if you consume CB with Backdraft, so don't make a habit of it, but it can still be good to consume it to get the Chaos Bolt damage. 

Chaos Bolt's damage is calculated AT THE END OF THE CAST

Chaos Bolt's DoT damage is calculated WHEN THE CB LANDS

 

This means GoSac may not actually increase CB by 15% but more like 13.5-14.0% with the 1-3 ticks you'll likely lose with lots of Haste effects.

 

Thanks to Soulzar for the find, Locky and Kazi for working through the findings with me in Mumble.

 

 

I just browsed through my logs from this week on fights that are more single target (Malk/Iron Jug) and found my lowest was 13.6% and highest 14.4%.  200-300k per fight, not too huge.  If Destro was not in a good place right now I'd want Blizz to look at how they calculate that dmg, but I am not sure I want them doing a pass over CB coefficients right now lol

 

hello

 

regarding openers, i'd love to pick your brains about opening on shamans hc as destro since i consider mine to be sub optimal to say the least or so i think but proly because i compare my dps right there with the mage's or the boomer's which might not be so very intelligent ... regardless, please help me out with this !

 

thank you !

 

o/

 

I am 10 man

 

I use Glyph of Havoc since we use the split strat.  I do not have a second target to Cleave to throughout the fight, though there is opportunity to cleave shadowburns from slime's.  The idea behind the glyph is being able to cast 4 bully buffed chaos bolts on pull to melt the dogs quickly.  8M dmg in 2 casts is fun!

 

As Zagam mentioned you can F&B conflag to fish 2p, however outside of that with only 4 targets and the F&B modifier IMO your dmg is best focused on the two dogs with Chaos Bolts, and not to all 4 targets with F&B.  I am sure that point could be debatable.

 

In lieu of our discussion yesterday regarding Chaos Bolt dot clipping, more specifically spell power vs when it is applied, I am likely going to be experimenting with my opener a bit this week.  However without hero on pull, casts may not be fast enough to clip... I'll have to check my logs.

 

Last week I Precast Immo, RoF, Immo other 3 targets, Double conflag, incin, havoc, cbx2.

 

My second CB was late for my first trinket proc, primarily because I messed up and tossed in the incin after double conflag, however my emebrs were already at 3 by the time my first CB cast was completed, so I can start that sooner by removing two of the 4 immolates from before the CB casts.  I plan to try Precast Immo, RoF,  conflagx2, Immo second dog, Havoc, CB, RoF, CB and see if that gets my CB's out and their dots up in time.  May not have time to put the RoF between CB's.. and it may not be necessary without hero.

 

I am def open to discussion around optimizing it.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Soulzar

[Zokeh 0]

You are so intent on stats that it's almost scary. Just make mastery your priority. I don't really recommend skipping out on socket bonuses, but sometimes it just doesn't matter. Incinerate without backdraft really isn't that slow of a cast. Haste is basically my lowest stat and I don't feel like I'm slugging around.

 

I'm just trying to min/max, that's all.

 

Don't see how that's scary xP

[Rakupenda 15]

I'm just trying to min/max, that's all.

 

Don't see how that's scary xP

Min max your decision making in the midst of a fight instead of your gear stat weights is what he was implying.

[Zagam 1,983]

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/xtvhtmkkeqljm23t/

 

First half of SoO (Protectors through Nazgrim).  Posting because I'm down to 7.45% Haste unbuffed and I'm seeing some crazy awesome numbers.  #11 Heroic Protectors as Destro (460k) and a decent parse on Norushen (top 30).  Analyze away to see some neat stuff.  I won't ruin the spoilers.

[Zagam 1,983]

Stats unbuffed:

 

Stats raid buffed:

 

50k+ SPELL POWER!

 

Also, my Crit should be 5% higher, just had no Crit buff at screenshot time.