badbread

Long time raider struggling with Destro DPS, logs and lots of info

21 posts in this topic

Link to my armory:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/aggramar/Badbread/simple

 

Link to comparison on Iron Jug, Flex:

http://raidbots.com/comparebot/5265633574254e7a5b0001be#damage

 

 

Hi everyone, long time reader, first time poster. I am trying out for a guild that really suites my raid times, seem like a good group of people, etc and last night they did Flex Wing 2 with me to get some logs to analyze. To say I under performed would be a huge understatement. Normally I can hang with my normal Flex group in the top 5 at the very least but last night with this group, I looked like an ilvl 496 being carried through compared to what this group put up in DPS. Very disheartening, so I turn to you Warlock experts of the interwebs, please help me play my class better. I am eager to learn and improve.

 

A brief description of my toon: iLvl 547 warlock, destro primary, using askmrrobot suggestions for a PVE: Multi-target build. For spell rotation I am following Icy Veins guide as much as possible with the biggest exception being no fel flame as I usually spec KJC and did in this fight. 

 

I use WeakAura's to make it very apparent when trinket procs are up and affdots to help as well.

 

Looking at the comparison posted above my very novice analysis of where I lacked was in Shard generation, trinket procs (dark soul included), crits, CB prioritization, and maybe I shouldn't have been using RoF?

 

Let me quickly say that I try to follow Icy Veins (IV) suggestions to the T (minus fel flame), I don't have any elite warlock friends to play with and bounce rotations/strats/etc off of so I try to do what I've learned on this site.

 

So lets break it down by where I think my crappy analysis puts me and then /point /lol @ %t (badbread) when you pro's step in and tell me how much I suck. Note: I have only played a lock since the vanilla days of WoW, no alts at all (bank doesn't count.)

 

 

Shard Generation:

So I casted rain of fire A LOT. Following IV's suggestion to generate shards as much as possible. The lock in the comparison did not at all but still seems to have generated way more shards than I. Is this a result of not spec'ing crit?

 

Further looking at it, I am questioning my decision to use askmrrobots Multi target build as that build prioritizes haste over crit, which if I am reading the logs correctly seems to be hurting me to the tune of about 12 million extra damage on CB alone. Add shadowburn to that crit loss number and there is another 7 million dmg.

 

My thinking behind using that build on Askmrrobot was if when I needed to spec affliction, having the haste instead of crit would keep my affliction DPS up as well but if I'm not cutting it even on my main spec, something needs to change.

 

Trinkets and Shadowburn:

On the shadowburn side of things I think I need to rethink and reprioritize how I use them. Right now I basically sit on embers (never 4 of them) waiting for a trinket proc in the last 20% because if I do not, the burns only hit for around 380k or so non crit. If I come close to filling up on embers in the last 20%, I throw a CB out in an attempt to not waste an ember.

 

Also, I know there are fights where KJC is absolutely essential (belt on blackfuse for instance in my case) but when not, should I introduce fel flame to my rotation and take Archimondes darkness to have 2 dark soul's available for those times when nothing is proc'ing at all? I feel like I have very long periods of no trinket procs during boss fights.

 

I know there is much more to look over and analyze but I'll start with that, hopefully you'll take it easy on me and I don't suck that bad.

 

 

Thanks for your time reading this and for any help or tips you can provide,

badbread, the shitty lock of aggramar

 

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You kinda self-diagnosed most of your issues.  Have you visited my FAQ on how to fix your DPS?  It looks like you're doing a lot of things mechanically wrong that if corrected would fix your DPS in a significant matter. 

 

For example:

 

You only used Dark Soul once.

Absolutely no reason to cast Rain of Fire in a pure single target scenario.

Your average Chaos Bolt was 714,451.  This is incredibly low.  The person you are compared to, for example, averaged 1,286,337 per Chaos Bolt.

You had rather crappy RNG on your Incinerate Crit %.  This hurts, but not that much. 

3 Shadowburns.  This is just bad.  Your comparison person got in 9.  That's 3x as many.

 

Take a look at your logs more in depth and go through my FAQ and really assess yourself on each question.  I have a feeling you have lots of room to grow.

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Thanks Zagam,

I think I need to be a little more "situational" if you will and not as literal as what I am reading on the forums and strat guides. When I played before, as I said in the original post I had other locks to talk to and get tips from. I am going to do try to get in some oQueue Flex 2's now with a little more crit and a different "mechanical" approach and see how it goes. Thanks for your response.

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Looking at the comparison posted above my very novice analysis of where I lacked was in Shard generation, trinket procs (dark soul included), crits, CB prioritization, and maybe I shouldn't have been using RoF?

 

I'm going to assume when you say Shards you mean Embers.  Sorry I'm picky, haha.  But yes, you definitely lacked in the buff department.  The fight almost went to 4:00 minutes, so in this timeframe you can only get 2 Dark Souls off.  You only used Dark Soul once, and you used it in the middle of the fight with barely no other interaction to other buffs.  It aligned a little bit with Jade Spirit and a little with Lightweave, arguably your weakest procs.  I also don't see any potion uses.  Your opener was not NEARLY as effective as it could have been.  Pre-pot, use Dark Soul at the start.  Use Dark Soul every single time it comes off CD unless you're about to hit execute (in which case save it) or if you're in a phase of a fight where your casting will be seeing limited use (AKA, Garrosh phases).

 

Your opener looks like a wet noodle compared to what you could have done if you popped everything.  Your opener can carry your DPS for a good amount of the fight if you do it right.  Most of your issues are really just lining up your CD's.  Somehow, arguably your biggest proc (Expanded Mind - PBI), which proc'd twice that fight, wasn't utilized well other than partially in the opener.  The 2nd time it proc'd, your DPS actually went down.  You've got to pay attention to that.  Don't dump Embers on no proc CB's unless you're about to cap on Embers.  Line these buffs up correctly and your DPS will increase like mad.

 

Shard Generation:

So I casted rain of fire A LOT. Following IV's suggestion to generate shards as much as possible. The lock in the comparison did not at all but still seems to have generated way more shards than I. Is this a result of not spec'ing crit?

 

Further looking at it, I am questioning my decision to use askmrrobots Multi target build as that build prioritizes haste over crit, which if I am reading the logs correctly seems to be hurting me to the tune of about 12 million extra damage on CB alone. Add shadowburn to that crit loss number and there is another 7 million dmg.

 

My thinking behind using that build on Askmrrobot was if when I needed to spec affliction, having the haste instead of crit would keep my affliction DPS up as well but if I'm not cutting it even on my main spec, something needs to change.

 

RoF can be used single-target when you have haste procs running.  You get more bang for your buck in those cases.  Otherwise I'd avoid using it unless you can get another target in there.  Crit can be a component of less Ember generation, but it's not going to be huge.  More haste = more spells = more Embers, so if you keep Affliciton as an offspec you're fine there.

 

Trinkets and Shadowburn:

On the shadowburn side of things I think I need to rethink and reprioritize how I use them. Right now I basically sit on embers (never 4 of them) waiting for a trinket proc in the last 20% because if I do not, the burns only hit for around 380k or so non crit. If I come close to filling up on embers in the last 20%, I throw a CB out in an attempt to not waste an ember.

 

Only use Shadowburn in execute range.  If you have no procs and you're about to cap, use Shadowburn anyway.

 

Also, I know there are fights where KJC is absolutely essential (belt on blackfuse for instance in my case) but when not, should I introduce fel flame to my rotation and take Archimondes darkness to have 2 dark soul's available for those times when nothing is proc'ing at all? I feel like I have very long periods of no trinket procs during boss fights.

 

If you're comfortable weaving in Fel Flame, then AD can be good, but I prefer to roll with KJC almost exclusively.  Fel Flame doesn't gain anything from the 2-piece and Incinerate just hits like a truck anyway.

 

Again, your biggest issue is lining up your procs and using potions.  Use potions!!!  biggrin.png

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Thanks Zagam,

I think I need to be a little more "situational" if you will and not as literal as what I am reading on the forums and strat guides. When I played before, as I said in the original post I had other locks to talk to and get tips from. I am going to do try to get in some oQueue Flex 2's now with a little more crit and a different "mechanical" approach and see how it goes. Thanks for your response.

Changing your stats isn't going to do anything to your DPS.  Using Chaos Bolt correctly, using Dark Soul more than once in a 5 minute fight, and improving your spell priorities is what you need to be focusing on.  You can do that at a test dummy.

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Ok, so I am playing on the training dummies and had an idea for gauging where I'm at and how I am doing.

 

I am using simcraft set to a training dummy. Removed all buffs other than stam and spell power (assuming Dark intent covers those.) Set the skill level to the lowest, 200 sec, medium world lag, removed all debuffs, etc.

 

I am running that simulation and then comparing it to a /combatlog to see where I need work. 

 

The one issue I am facing is simcraft is simulating ShadowBurn's in there which I cannot do on the test dummy. Am I doing it wrong or do I need to put an override in there somewhere? If so, any idea how to override shadowburn. I can't seem to find an pertinent data on google.

 

Is this even a good way to gauge my progress? Logically it makes sense but who knows.

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Ok, so I am playing on the training dummies and had an idea for gauging where I'm at and how I am doing.

 

I am using simcraft set to a training dummy. Removed all buffs other than stam and spell power (assuming Dark intent covers those.) Set the skill level to the lowest, 200 sec, medium world lag, removed all debuffs, etc.

 

I am running that simulation and then comparing it to a /combatlog to see where I need work. 

 

The one issue I am facing is simcraft is simulating ShadowBurn's in there which I cannot do on the test dummy. Am I doing it wrong or do I need to put an override in there somewhere? If so, any idea how to override shadowburn. I can't seem to find an pertinent data on google.

 

Is this even a good way to gauge my progress? Logically it makes sense but who knows.

 

I think you're focusing too much on SimCraft, but I'm biased and just like putting things into practice while going through logs afterwards in WoL.

 

If you really want to test your Shadowburns, use the "Execute" dummy.  It's always in execute range for you to test that on.

 

Otherwise, just work on what we've said in an LFR to really see if you're improving.  You should have all the raid buffs and you can test against yourself rather than against what SimCraft tells you you should be doing with no buffs.

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So what do you do when there are long periods of no trinket procs? I feel like I frequently have very long periods of nothing but lightweave proc'ing. Should I be looking to replace one of my trinkets with something that procs more often? Also, during your startup burn, any tricks to generate more shards for chaos bolts when just about every trinket procs? 

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Embers!  XD

 

Unfortunately there isn't too much that you can do about sparce procs.  Keep up your rotation and continue to fire off CB's at 3.5+ Embers whether or not you see a proc to prevent Ember capping.  The log you posted had a decent uptime on most of your procs that could have been utilized better.  The only thing you could have hoped for was maybe a bit more luck with Breath proc'ing, but you still get 3 procs which is OK in a fight that went to only 3:49.

 

For your startup, just check out Zagam's Destruction guide for the opener.  It's pretty standard and what most people use with minor variances.  With the T15 2-piece (yeah I still have it tongue.png) I can fire off about 3-4 CB's with Dark Soul (and most everything else) still up.

 

As a more specific example, for Protectors last week I tried out Destruction with very good results.  My opener looked like:

 

1. Pre-pot, pop everything.

2. Immolate Sun and He and keep RoF on them. (Our raid has them in RoF range and Rook a distance away from them)

3. Immolate Rook, Conflag x2, Incinerate x4 and get off as many CB's as possible with one of them Havoc'd to another panda

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So I've been reading and practicing a lot and today I put it to the test a bit in some Flex runs.

 

Iron Jug Flex 2 days ago vs today:

http://raidbots.com/comparebot/5266e9aa74254e912f000696

 

Dark Shaman 2 days ago vs today:

http://raidbots.com/comparebot/5266ea8174254e185700053f#damage

Looks like I lacked in the Shadowburn department, the fight was a bit of a shit show but still some improvement albeit very minor, immolate up time seems much better I think. Any idea why there are 2 immolate fields and 2 conflag fields in there? 

 

Sha of pride today, take 2 vs take 1 after analyzing log 2:

http://www.raidbots.com/comparebot/5266fff674254e185700075f#damage

 

Norushun today, after analyzing, went in 2nd just as I did on the first time:

http://www.raidbots.com/comparebot/5267006474254e9c380002a5

According to the stats it looks like i really messed up keeping immolate up, which is weird, I thought I had it up most the time

 

 

 

The results are marginal but they are results! Practice, practice, practice I guess.

 

Thanks for all the responses, truly appreciate it. If anyone wants to give me some feedback on the logs and tell me what I need to work on I would really appreciate it.

 

Thanks!

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Still no prepot/pot. Make friends with an alchemist! And still not getting max DS use (then again I forget to use it on H Galakras because ele shamans). Tons of addons to help keep track of when cd is up.

 

Any idea why there are 2 immolate fields and 2 conflag fields in there? 

My guess is FaB Immolate/Conflag vs non-FaB. 

 

And on Norushen logs I'm guessing you went in to test realm, which manages to screw with your meter and tracking uptime.

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basic's i can help you with:

 

1- since choas bolt isnt your first most damaging ability you should do a better job squeezing as many with trinket procs as possible.

 

2- RoF isn't used in single target as it's ember regeneration (shard) nerved and would ruin your mana management.

 

3-your timeless finger is wasting a bit more secondary stat's that would help you (nnot your fault).

 

read the sticky's on raid tips and stuff about each boss it will help you alot as it did with me and would enhance your gameplay on the edge.

 

and GL fellow lock = )

Edited by Demonolish

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My guess is FaB Immolate/Conflag vs non-FaB.

This is correct.  Incinerate, Conflagrate, and Immolate have two fields, one for normal hits and one for Fire and Brimstone hits.

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Here is another compare since I started logging and my progress. Did slightly better in the DPS department today on a random oQueue Sha of Pride. 

 

http://raidbots.com/comparebot/5268550f74254eae45000311#damage

 

Looks like I did much better with immolate up time, and the number of Choas Bolts put out, I wasn't flasked and mistook a swelling pride for hero but still seeings some progress.

 

As far as pre-pot/pot goes, I'm not sure if I am doing it right. I take the pot about 2 seconds before pull, burn like mad with trink and procs and then pot again on procs when the pot is ready. Is that about right?

 

Thanks again everyone for all your help!

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Pot again when you have procs/cds or if you bloodlust for execute phase/late burn.

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So I've been reading and practicing a lot and today I put it to the test a bit in some Flex runs.

 

Iron Jug Flex 2 days ago vs today:

http://raidbots.com/comparebot/5266e9aa74254e912f000696

 

Dark Shaman 2 days ago vs today:

http://raidbots.com/comparebot/5266ea8174254e185700053f#damage

Looks like I lacked in the Shadowburn department, the fight was a bit of a shit show but still some improvement albeit very minor, immolate up time seems much better I think. Any idea why there are 2 immolate fields and 2 conflag fields in there? 

 

Sha of pride today, take 2 vs take 1 after analyzing log 2:

http://www.raidbots.com/comparebot/5266fff674254e185700075f#damage

 

Norushun today, after analyzing, went in 2nd just as I did on the first time:

http://www.raidbots.com/comparebot/5267006474254e9c380002a5

According to the stats it looks like i really messed up keeping immolate up, which is weird, I thought I had it up most the time

 

 

 

The results are marginal but they are results! Practice, practice, practice I guess.

 

Thanks for all the responses, truly appreciate it. If anyone wants to give me some feedback on the logs and tell me what I need to work on I would really appreciate it.

 

Thanks!

So, a couple of notes which just solidify some earlier guesswork.

 

On Iron Jugg, on your 2nd parse, your DPS went from 175k to 205k, a jump of 30k, or a 17% gain.  That's kinda huge.  I hope I get a 17% raise this year...

 

The reason your DPS went up is your average CB was 100k higher.  You had 5 Shadowburns instead of 3.  Essence of Yulon did more damage because you had more casts off instead of Rain of Fire.  My real question is why you did this with a different guild?  It looks like your 2nd guild is much worse in the DPS department as fights lasted longer.  This opens up opportunities for you since all Warlocks have strong executes built into their spec. 

 

Similar things happened on Sha.  Higher CBs, more SBs, etc.  Keep working on things.  Making good progress.

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Ask Mr Robot is not always perfect and sims lie and target dummies are no substitute for real raid situations.

 

I will share my experiences of Mastery/Crit/Haste and tell you I have done full regems/reforges at ilvl 540 (555 now) and run normal modes ToT/SOO to test them out.  While I don't have the time to link my parses basically it came down to this:

 

Mastery > all.  Incinerate with KJC is fantastically powerful.  Reforge/gem everything into full Mastery, including red slots (int/mastery).  I have about 105% mastery (unbuffed).

 

Crit > Haste.  Haste is about the same as crit UNTIL you get below the 1.0 second GCD, then it's wasted.  Backdraft with Tempus Repit and 5% haste and Heroism make for a whole lot of wasted stats.  Crit is never wasted, makes for more embers, bigger CBs, etc etc.  I run with about 25% crit now and something like 6,000 haste (unbuffed).

 

Hit as close to 15% as possible.  I usually don't gem for Hit/Expertise as it's easier to reforge than to buy/cut gems imo.  A little under or over is fine, don't sweat it too much.

 

The main thing I would reinforce from Zagam/Omaric is timing your CBs properly.

 

Priority should be

 

Trinket Proc? -> CB

> 3.5 Embers -> CB

Immo/conflag/Incinerate

repeat

 

Regarding DSI, it should be stacked with a proc whenever possible.  If you just came down off both your trinket procs and have no embers, I find that using DSI as soon as Immolate is under 8 seconds and I have at least one conflag up is great to start generating a ton of embers again so I hopefully have 3+ for the next trinket proc.

 

Jade Spirit and Darkglow are crap procs, ignore them (largely).  Don't waste DSI or POTs stacking with these procs.

 

Also, use Jade Serpent TWICE.. prepot and then again whenever the stars align and you get a double trinket with a DSI and 3+ embers.. use it and blast away.

 

Timing trinket procs makes a ridiculous amount of difference in DPS, honestly it's a little disheartening that Destro DPS is so reliant on getting PBI/KTT similar to how Demo T15 was totally reliant on UVLS/Haste and LIVE FOR THE IMP SWARM.

 

Tops if you got it, garbage if you don't.

 

A final note is that DPS is not everything as a great many of these fights have so much padding damage and pulling 200K on Thok is probably better than pulling 300K on Garrosh because of pointless damage on adds like triple shadowburning the blue head on Megaera (but so much fun amirite?)  So always try to gauge meaningful damage like bursting MCed teammates on Garrosh or things like that as well, not just overall damage.

 

Cheers and GL

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Well just thought I would update you all with how I am doing. First off, thank you all for all the tips, as you will see (I hope) it's made a HUGE difference. Here are a few links to my latest logs in 25M SoO:

 

Sha of Pride (Love this fight, BTW)

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/5j4tmsr9xqzoyq2i/analyze/dd/source/?s=1947&e=2253

 

Nazgrim (Love this one as well, broke 300k EDPS

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/5j4tmsr9xqzoyq2i/analyze/dd/source/?s=5983&e=6253

 

Malkorok

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/5j4tmsr9xqzoyq2i/analyze/dd/source/?s=6879&e=7110

 

Any more suggestions on what else I can improve. I've been looking at my cool down usage and I do realize I could use them a bit more efficiently. 

 

Thank you all a lot, because of this thread and the tips I've received in it I am in a 25M 13/14N 1/14H guild!

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Good work.  Keep on improving. 

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      - i am missing one RoP each fight in this example log
      - His DMG on Ursoc partially comes from Dragon's Breath + Ruby on the Add
      I recently discovered the following tool. Not sure how accurate it is however:
      http://www.checkmywow.com/reports/jybH6AN7C9dpRVmr/73430163/1?tab=basic
       
      My Conclusion:
      There are smal differences in the basic Rotation which should result in rather small DMG gap.
      My Confusion: (see what i did there? :D)
      The DMG gap is huge..?
       
      I would love to hear your opinion. Maybe i am missing something significant?
      If you need more logs or anything else, feel free to let me know.
      Thank all of you in advance!! :)
      (Please be kind, english is not my primary language)