[Archived] Retribution Paladin 5.4

[Guest Deekt]

in the Major Glyph section, Glyph of Word of Glory only provides a dps boost if used to heal, it doesn't provide the boost when used to damage (via Harsh Words). Your note implies it gives the boost in both cases.

[Guest Mitsu]

Why are +480 haste jc listed as best to use on some sites , but +320 str jc gems on others

weights on http://www.maxdps.com are 3.7 for strength and 1.89 for haste

weights on http://www.askmrrobo...rrobot.com��are 3.52 for strength and 1.93 for haste

making 320 str (1000+ weight) > 480 haste ( around 900 weight)

but then here, noxxic + wowbestinslot apparently 480 haste > 320 str

would this depend on current stats?

for example, i have 8000 haste. quite confusing

[Vladamyr 169]

Bold Serpent's Eye is what you will want to use. 1 Str = .52 to about .57 haste. (The haste value varies based on many, many factors) Therefore, unless you are in pre-raid gear and unable to obtain the necessary hit/expertise caps, you should use Bold Serpent's Eye. 320>(480*.57)

Askmrrobot.com is usually the most accurate of the sites you listed. The only thing I wouldn't trust to them is trinket or tier bonus weighting.

Vlad/Damien, I think the gemming section for Ret needs to be updated. When you get a second that is

[Guest Jack Watson]

Why do you recommend not using Templar's Verdict until 5 charges of Holy Power? It only requires 3 charges to cast TV.

Thanks

[Vladamyr 169]

Why do you recommend not using Templar's Verdict until 5 charges of Holy Power? It only requires 3 charges to cast TV.

Thanks

Because during your rotation you want to continue building Holy Power as much as possible so that you can get off more Templar's Verdicts. If you were to cast it at 3HP yet a Crusader Strike or Judgement was able to be cast instead, you would get a slower HP gain and therefore less dps over the course of the fight.

[Guest James Mackintosh]

I'm having trouble deciding how to gem atm as at my current gear level if I use strength based gems, haste becomes more valuable than strength but if i use haste based gems, strength becomes more valuable than haste how should I decide how to gem? or is there a middle ground where i mix it half and half?

[Guest Stormforger]

Under the enchanting section, I think it'd be a good idea to relate the boot enchants to which Tier 1 talent you've choose. Enchant Boots - Pandaren's Step should only be applied if you did not choose Pursuit of Justice as your Tier 1 talent since I don't believe they stack.

[Vlad 411]

I'm having trouble deciding how to gem atm as at my current gear level if I use strength based gems, haste becomes more valuable than strength but if i use haste based gems, strength becomes more valuable than haste how should I decide how to gem? or is there a middle ground where i mix it half and half?

Without maths to support it, I'd say that if you're so close to the middle, the difference it will make on your DPS will be very small ultimately.

[Fillingi 0]

Hey Vlad, just an idea for a tiny guide addition.

Players with common sense will know these things, and since you state that Inquisition holds the highest priority, this may be implied. So I realize my idea may be pointless.

But all I know is that what is done during the 30 second window of Avenging Wrath (assuming Sanctified Wrath) and Guardian of Ancient Kings is pretty important due to damage gains. With that being said, I've always found it effective to pop the cooldowns off the GCD at the same time as I apply a full application of inquisition. That way, as you pallies already know, you don't have to waste three holy power or a GCD during your 30 second burst window. I think it may be a helpful tip to include. Thanks for your consideration.

[Guest Zoog]

After extensive testing, I found that Divine Purpose was a better than Sanctified Wrath. The key is haste: the more you have, the more DP procs.

Also, I'm not sure why you guys would say that Execution Sentence is better than Holy Prism "without any doubt". ES never crits. With Inquisition up, HP is critting an amazing number of times: around 60%. You say there are "too many global cooldowns" to use HP to its full potential. How many do you have? Most Retadins can EASILY manage to use HP as part of their regular rotation.

It's a ranged attack that you can use every 20 seconds. It often crits for around 80k up to twice a minute and 60k a third time for around 220k damage, which is DOUBLE that of Execution Sentence. And it heals 5 raid members. In a 25m raid, I'm always doing 8% of the total healing, which is damned impressive. I can use HP precisely when I need to in order to avoid overhealing and help the healers during those panic moments. At the least, its healing for 450k every minute. When it starts critting, that jumps up substantially. Next time you are working on your farm and you know you have a few virmin to fight, use HP and get a feel for its damage/healing/crit output. I'm certain that you'll change your assessment.

Lastly, Glyph of Word of Glory is tricky, but potentially very powerful. I'm not the best "stacker", but there are epic Retadins who either have trained themselves to stack this proc at three charges (9% extra damage for 6 seconds) with others like the 2-part Tier-15 set bonus (6% extra damage for 6 seconds). When you start stacking with perhaps Holy Avenger (30% extra damage for 18 seconds) and Avenging Wrath (20% extra damage for 20 seconds) and trinkets + pots, you can get pretty epic. As it stands, I don't use the add-ons that chime me when its time to stack, but I've found that by using Divine Purpose and watching my Excorsim cd and Holy Power charges, I can stack 15% extra damage fairly often during a fight for an overall 10k dps boost. When stacked together, I can do two attacks, unless Divine Purpose starts popping, then I can do up to 6 attacks. And if you are fighting a mob with the Glyph of Mass Excorcism and the 2-part Tier bonus, use Divine Storm for 15% extra damage on everything that your Mass Excorsim previously hit.

Which reminds me, you missed the Glyph that makes your Divine Storm heal you for 5% of your total health.

[Vladamyr 169]

After extensive testing....

Are you writing this in response to the leveling guide?

[Vlad 411]

Hey Vlad, just an idea for a tiny guide addition.

Players with common sense will know these things, and since you state that Inquisition holds the highest priority, this may be implied. So I realize my idea may be pointless.

But all I know is that what is done during the 30 second window of Avenging Wrath (assuming Sanctified Wrath) and Guardian of Ancient Kings is pretty important due to damage gains. With that being said, I've always found it effective to pop the cooldowns off the GCD at the same time as I apply a full application of inquisition. That way, as you pallies already know, you don't have to waste three holy power or a GCD during your 30 second burst window. I think it may be a helpful tip to include. Thanks for your consideration.

That's a nice suggestion, so I'll find a way to squeeze it into the guide. Thank you!

After extensive testing, I found that Divine Purpose was a better than Sanctified Wrath. The key is haste: the more you have, the more DP procs.

Also, I'm not sure why you guys would say that Execution Sentence is better than Holy Prism "without any doubt". ES never crits. With Inquisition up, HP is critting an amazing number of times: around 60%. You say there are "too many global cooldowns" to use HP to its full potential. How many do you have? Most Retadins can EASILY manage to use HP as part of their regular rotation.

It's a ranged attack that you can use every 20 seconds. It often crits for around 80k up to twice a minute and 60k a third time for around 220k damage, which is DOUBLE that of Execution Sentence. And it heals 5 raid members. In a 25m raid, I'm always doing 8% of the total healing, which is damned impressive. I can use HP precisely when I need to in order to avoid overhealing and help the healers during those panic moments. At the least, its healing for 450k every minute. When it starts critting, that jumps up substantially. Next time you are working on your farm and you know you have a few virmin to fight, use HP and get a feel for its damage/healing/crit output. I'm certain that you'll change your assessment.

Lastly, Glyph of Word of Glory is tricky, but potentially very powerful. I'm not the best "stacker", but there are epic Retadins who either have trained themselves to stack this proc at three charges (9% extra damage for 6 seconds) with others like the 2-part Tier-15 set bonus (6% extra damage for 6 seconds). When you start stacking with perhaps Holy Avenger (30% extra damage for 18 seconds) and Avenging Wrath (20% extra damage for 20 seconds) and trinkets + pots, you can get pretty epic. As it stands, I don't use the add-ons that chime me when its time to stack, but I've found that by using Divine Purpose and watching my Excorsim cd and Holy Power charges, I can stack 15% extra damage fairly often during a fight for an overall 10k dps boost. When stacked together, I can do two attacks, unless Divine Purpose starts popping, then I can do up to 6 attacks. And if you are fighting a mob with the Glyph of Mass Excorcism and the 2-part Tier bonus, use Divine Storm for 15% extra damage on everything that your Mass Excorsim previously hit.

Which reminds me, you missed the Glyph that makes your Divine Storm heal you for 5% of your total health.

In all the cases you mentioned (except for Glyph of Divine Storm), I would like to mention that we generally rely on hard facts (simulation results/solid theorycrafting) and opinions from top players when deciding which talent is a bigger DPS boost.

So, information like "ES never crits", and "Holy Prism is critting an amazing number of times" etc., is already factored into the simulations/theorycrafting that deems Execution Sentence to be better. It's not as if we only looked at the damage it does in a cast and decided that the higher damage is better. Regarding the global cooldowns, yes, that is an issue. You do not really end up sitting around too often without casting spells as a Retribution Paladin, so, if you need to spend 3 global cooldowns to get as much out of Holy Prism as one global cooldown yields from Execution Sentence, that is certainly a disadvantage of Holy Prism. Again, though, this is something that is factored when assessing the talents.

For Divine Purpose, likewise, it is simply a matter of cold, hard, facts vs feeling and opinion.

Your point about Glyph of Divine Storm is good, though, I'll add it to the list. It's unlikely that anyone will be taking it (since Double Jeopardy, Mass Exorcism, and Templar's Verdict are so much better in general), but it's a good glyph and should be mentioned.

And, please, don't take my rebuttals as being hostile. That's far from it - I'm very happy whenever someone makes a comment and challenges something in our guides. However, in order for us to say that talent X is better than Y, we wait to have conclusive evidence that that is the case :)

Thank you again!

[Guest Bubblehearth!]

Thank you so much for putting this together. It is exactly what I needed; very useful and helpful information.

[Guest Mitsu]

is there any reachable point that 1 strength becomes superior to 2 haste?

or is gemming haste always benificial over strength?

its hard to find any info on this

thanks

[Vladamyr 169]

There theoretically could be (you would have to sim for it) but in practice no. Haste get's better and better as your ilvl goes up.

[Guest Amadin]

You should definitely have Relic of Xuen in your list of BiS Trinkets for Ret Paladins. Even with the current tier of items, it's still one of the best there is.

[Vladamyr 169]

Relic of Xuen is a good trinket and it could be added to the Gearing Up - Trinket list. Not including Heroic items, it hovers around the 10th best range.

Please note, that on the gear page, there are two secions; 1. Best In Slot Items, 2. Gearing Up.

The gearing up section is only a list of available items arranged by ilvl then subsorted by alphabetical listing. In no way is it tied to a BiS list.

[Guest Inspera]

Something I noticed that you haven't mentioned and I'm curious about is whether you should wait until you have Inq up for you to use Execution Sentence, is it affected by the bonus Holy dmg (I'd assume so)? Is waiting for the Inq a bonus or should you just get it straight on the target? Does casting Inq part way through the spell increase its damage towards the end?

Many thanks for any replies! <3

[Tarazet 144]

Yes, it is affected by Inquisition. Use Guardian of Ancient Kings to start stacking your buff, get your 3-HP Inquisition up, then at 20 stacks use Avenging Wrath and Execution Sentence.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Tarazet

[Guest Egoreaper]

Use Guardian of Ancient Kings to start stacking your buff, get your 3-HP Inquisition up, then at 20 stacks use Avenging Wrath and Execution Sentence.

I would recommend Popping Avenging wrath with 20-21 seconds left on your GotAK and then ES at 20 stacks of the Guardian Buff. It's hard to get all 20 stacks in under 10 seconds (Idk that I've done it yet). I love watching my numbers if I can get this right. It can be hard lol.

[EgoReaper 9]

How does Divine purpose scale across the board with the other talents in that tier? I would think that because it's not CD bound, it might be a better option than the others especially since it can allow you to spam TV when CDs aren't up. I know it's not a chosen talent because of the lack of control by the player, but it seems like a fairly strong option in the long run.

Ty for all answers that come to my questions.

[Vladamyr 169]

All 3 talents are relatively close within 1-2% but as with most things it depends on the fight. If you have a burn phase with increased damage (Jin'rokh, Ji-Kun, Primordius) then Divine Purpose falls behind. For fights like (Horridon, Council, Twins) then I love Divine Purpose.

[Guest milan]

For me with full T15 set is important do to so much crusader strike - templars verdict combo as possible. That is why I am always using divine purpose. When bonus set procs TV deals twice DMG as normal TV.

[Guest Bael]

In the dps rotation there may be .5-1 second where I'm at 3 HP and everything that builds HP is on CD.. so that brings me to my question: Should I dump the HP and use TV or wait the .5-1 second and keep building HP with the next cd available? I'm doing anywhere from 230-250k+ dps with my cd's running, but I do drop down to about 100-125k eventually. Is that the norm for Ret dps to drop down that much without cd's? (this is a general question, I do not want to get my logs together and stuff at this time, so please provide a general answer lol)

[Guest Montoyal]

The clash should be around .2 seconds, anymore than that is a dps decrease since you are wasting delicous GCD time.