5.4 Destruction Tips and Quirks

[Omaric 246]

Come on man, didn't you catch that sweet ass game last night?  Browns and Bills, I don't think a matchup can get anymore exciting than that, you should be pumped right meow.

[Zagam 1,983]

I went through my Paragons log and the same bullshit happened...fairly regular intervals and then boom, a big window.  It looks like there may be an ICD of 10 sec which would make the absolute best possible uptime 33%.  It also devalues the shit out of Haste even more and makes it so you would actually NOT want to generate an Ember unless your ICD was up...this is the kinda stuff that I know people haven't built into the set bonus profiles for Simcraft and other modeling.  I just wish Blizz would lay out exactly how shit works. 

 

I had to help my Elemental Shaman test his new 4pc where it procs an Elemental for him.  Blizz doesn't give info, so he sat at a dummy for 45 minutes and DPS'd while I had a stopwatch and monitored procs and the DPS % he got from those adds.  If Blizz had just said 'Ele's will proc one elemental every 60 seconds and they will do 5 casts', it woulda saved him and me a lot of time.  Same issue here.  Maybe on the next patch notes, it'll reflect something like 'clarified a tooltip to show that Ember Master has a 10 second ICD.' 

[Rakupenda 15]

Going back to the original text file, I see durations between procs and all are over 10 seconds.  I know I was pushing Ember generation higher, so perhaps there is an unstated ICD (GASP) that Blizz doesn't let us know about, thus skewing results.  It could explain the gap in the procs being wide enough if perhaps I built another Ember in 9 seconds and didn't again for another 10 seconds making the maximum window of 19 seconds, or of course longer if it takes you longer to make an Ember.

 

Could just be another wonderful thing Blizz doesn't tell us so it's left for open interpretation.  I swear, this patch is just driving me away from theorycrafting at all.  I'm just going to show up, do what works best, and fire at will.  Forget writing all this stuff...it changes or just turns out to be wrong because of bullshit information from the source.  I apologize for the snappiness...this Friday feels anything BUT a happy end of the week. 

So what about your double/overlapping procs you said you were getting?

[Rakupenda 15]

I went through my Paragons log and the same bullshit happened...fairly regular intervals and then boom, a big window.  It looks like there may be an ICD of 10 sec which would make the absolute best possible uptime 33%.  It also devalues the shit out of Haste even more and makes it so you would actually NOT want to generate an Ember unless your ICD was up...this is the kinda stuff that I know people haven't built into the set bonus profiles for Simcraft and other modeling.  I just wish Blizz would lay out exactly how shit works. 

Thanks for confirming my initial concern.

[Zagam 1,983]

Come on man, didn't you catch that sweet ass game last night?  Browns and Bills, I don't think a matchup can get anymore exciting than that, you should be pumped right meow.

I'm a Steelers fan.  You realize this is the worst football season ever, right?  The fuckin' Browns are atop the AFC North.  Breaking Bad ended.  Dexter's ending STILL pisses me off.  I'm COMPLETELY overbooked on Saturday (helping a friend cut wood from 8a-11a, leading challenge modes for my girl from 12p-6p, WVU-Baylor game 8p-12a), and I look like a cranky bitch on the forums...probably because I am.  Work is just piling shit up and I HATE getting projects on Friday to think about all weekend.

 

TL;DR: I'm being a cranky bitch, I just had a Snickers.  I'll be in a good mood tonight in Mumble, I promise.

[Zagam 1,983]

So what about your double/overlapping procs you said you were getting?

What I'm afraid of is the ICD might exist after it expires.  By my own eyes, I saw my proc refresh itself.  I'm wondering if it can refresh itself but once it expires, it endures a short ICD.  I wouldn't put it past the programming logic to put something quirky in like that.

[Rakupenda 15]

What I'm afraid of is the ICD might exist after it expires.  By my own eyes, I saw my proc refresh itself.  I'm wondering if it can refresh itself but once it expires, it endures a short ICD.  I wouldn't put it past the programming logic to put something quirky in like that.

Interesting theory. I'll try to run some tests tonight and see if I can kick out a double proc.

[mcg05d 1]

Embers spent = embers generated + embers started (capped at 4)

 

Of course there will be a slight skew if you finish a fight with more than a partial ember, because then you wouldn't have spent a generated one.  It was just a simple way to calculate how many you should have had.  So yes, you generated 16.2 and gained 13 procs.  Has to be an ICD.  

 

I came here specifically to bring this up with you, knowing that you were a prominent member of warlock theorycrafting.  I became upset when you dismissed valid information simply because it wasn't a boss you approved of (which is still illogical dude, combat is combat...) which is where the "hundreds..." comment came from, but we worked it all out to come a conclusion that there is something wonky going on.  Sorry man.  

 

Rakupenda, I'd be interested to see the results.  I'm going out of town so I won't be able to do any testing of my own, but I'll check back here so please post!

Edited October 4, 2013 by mcg05d

[Lockybalboa 618]

Alternative theory, the 4pc cannot proc if there is already one of the procs active.

 

Granted this is just target dummy stuff but I'm quickly and commonly getting a proc much faster than 10 seconds, but I've never see the proc refresh mid proc even though I fill an ember.

[Rakupenda 15]

I've had the buff fall off, fill an ember shortly after through normal generation means (not soulburn), and not proc.

[Zagam 1,983]

Follow me on this journey real quick (to ensure my sanity)...

 

To get a full ember in 5 seconds, you'd need to generate 10 emberbits in 5 seconds, or 2 emberbits per second.  If you fired out 5 Incinerates at 1.000 sec casts and they all critted, that'd be the quickest you could do it single target, right?  I wonder if I saw the buff refresh during AoE with FnB after spending an Ember via Ember Tap.  Doesn't seem logically possible without ridiculous luck and Haste.

[mcg05d 1]

Zagam, I checked the tooltip on Conflag.  It says it generates embers and double on crits.  So that 0.8 you calculated based on crits should have been 1.6, and 9 non crits should have been 0.9, putting your total generated up to 17.9.  

 

Shorting you yet another proc...

Edited October 4, 2013 by mcg05d

[mcg05d 1]

Follow me on this journey real quick (to ensure my sanity)...

 

To get a full ember in 5 seconds, you'd need to generate 10 emberbits in 5 seconds, or 2 emberbits per second.  If you fired out 5 Incinerates at 1.000 sec casts and they all critted, that'd be the quickest you could do it single target, right?  I wonder if I saw the buff refresh during AoE with FnB after spending an Ember via Ember Tap.  Doesn't seem logically possible without ridiculous luck and Haste.

 

I'm not sure.  Incin x4 + conflag at the end all crits should generate you 1 burning ember at t=4s.  

 

That would refresh your buff, if that is possible.  Otherwise it would have to be FnB

Edited October 4, 2013 by mcg05d

[Rakupenda 15]

Follow me on this journey real quick (to ensure my sanity)...

 

To get a full ember in 5 seconds, you'd need to generate 10 emberbits in 5 seconds, or 2 emberbits per second.  If you fired out 5 Incinerates at 1.000 sec casts and they all critted, that'd be the quickest you could do it single target, right?  I wonder if I saw the buff refresh during AoE with FnB after spending an Ember via Ember Tap.  Doesn't seem logically possible without ridiculous luck and Haste.

You're forgetting Immolate ticking.

[Aezrael 0]

Still think the ember generation is wrong unless Zag is 100% sure he had multiple embers left when the fight ended.  I would think that when the boss is at ~2% he would have dumped all embers into shadow burn.

[Omaric 246]

Why Chaos Bolt? Ugh. UGH!!!! Come ooooonnnnnnnnnnn........

 

Also I was messing around on the PTR as Destruction while using the T16 gear off the vendor. Is it just me or does the 4-piece not always proc?

 

I just want to put this here.  Nobody cared then!  /sadface

 

Edit: mcg05d.  Pretend I'm looking down at your post like it's the intro of The Brady Bunch.  I changed your termage to be more in line with rainbows and butterflies.

[mcg05d 1]

It's because you weren't as much of a QT pie as I was.

[Zagam 1,983]

Destro guide updated.  Formatting coming Monday.  I just finished it and don't have time to add all the spell IDs.  It'll look as sexy as the Demo and Aff guide soon.  Removed BiS gear profile because it doesn't matter.

[Rakupenda 15]

Ended up being easy to test:

Reduce all embers to less than one (recommend getting 6-8 ember bits). Pop Dark Soul (and in my case Berserking, meta will proc) apply immolate to the four target dummies. Conflag twice, Cast incinerates and conflag on cooldown. You should easily generate two embers, one of which should happen while the 4p is active, especially if you have any kind of sizeable haste, I did it with 6700 haste. If you're having trouble, ask a heroism class to pop it for you when you apply the Immolates.

 

Can not refresh.

 

Had 2p proc just before the 4p fell off, ember filled just as 2p fell off and 4p did not proc (<15 sec after proc, <10 seconds after it fell off). In fact...the next try I managed to fill up all four embers in under 15 seconds using immolate/conflagrate/incinerate with only one 4p proc. Next attempt took slightly longer and it proced. Definitely leaning to the 10 sec after proc dissipates (truly a 15 second ICD on proc, sortof like a mini trinket).

 

Will try to pay closer attention during FoB on Siegecrafter Sunday.

[Kragermilton 4]

Thanks Zagam for you awesome work.  You make my crappy DPS, less crap.

[Ilion 8]

Oh gawd, this has been updated!

 

 

Props to you, zag!

[Ilyenna 1]

so i had a thought. Its always been at 3.5 embers if you have no procs you blow an ember. With the tier 16 4 set bonus, would we want to push it to 4 embers, to activate the set bonus to dump embers with the 15% crit chance? Could lose some emberbits, but each time (or every other time) you filled that last ember it would have the proc immediately for an immo and CB or such, instead of hitting 3 embers, pushing to 3.5 and maybe missing the window. From what i understand you don't want to fire of a CB everytime you get the proc, cause then you'll simply be using them as soon you get embers, and be short on embers when you get the high int procs. Lets say you push to 4, get the 15% crit, fire off CB to dump, then trinkets proc, you've still got 4, instead of trying to get to 3.5 and missing the proc, or just burning at 3, so you'd be at 2 embers when trinkets proc. Its just a thought. Wasn't sure whats the best way to tackle it, and can't test it since i don't have the 4 set yet.

 

Basically, we know we have to dump some CB with no procs...is it worth it to push 4 embers, so atleast a few we dump will have a small proc?

Edited October 6, 2013 by Ilyenna

[boxed 0]

I'm curious as to whether or not I follow simcraft off of a cliff. It's telling me my weights are 

 

Int: 1           

Crit: .61

Haste: .54

Mastery: .52

 

It is telling me that Mastery will eventually be more valuble than everything else because of the way it scales

http://cl.ly/image/053z0G3k3l1U

 

but other similarly geared locks are getting wildly different results than me. Can somebody confirm this is correct? It would be greatly appreciated.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/kiljaeden/Warlolck/advanced

Edited October 6, 2013 by boxed

[Zagam 1,983]

so i had a thought. Its always been at 3.5 embers if you have no procs you blow an ember. With the tier 16 4 set bonus, would we want to push it to 4 embers, to activate the set bonus to dump embers with the 15% crit chance? Could lose some emberbits, but each time (or every other time) you filled that last ember it would have the proc immediately for an immo and CB or such, instead of hitting 3 embers, pushing to 3.5 and maybe missing the window. From what i understand you don't want to fire of a CB everytime you get the proc, cause then you'll simply be using them as soon you get embers, and be short on embers when you get the high int procs. Lets say you push to 4, get the 15% crit, fire off CB to dump, then trinkets proc, you've still got 4, instead of trying to get to 3.5 and missing the proc, or just burning at 3, so you'd be at 2 embers when trinkets proc. Its just a thought. Wasn't sure whats the best way to tackle it, and can't test it since i don't have the 4 set yet.

 

Basically, we know we have to dump some CB with no procs...is it worth it to push 4 embers, so atleast a few we dump will have a small proc?

If you are at 4.0 Embers, you could waste an emberbit proc via Immolate ticks, Rain of Fire ticks, etc.  If you're dependent on using the proc, use it at 3.0 Embers, not 4.0.  Also, if you missed the discussion on the 4pc bonus, it has a 10 sec ICD, so you can't rely on a proc every time you fill an Ember.  If you filled a 4th Ember within 10 seconds of filling a 3rd, you'd be wasting emberbits.

 

I'm curious as to whether or not I follow simcraft off of a cliff. It's telling me my weights are 

 

Int: 1           

Crit: .61

Haste: .54

Mastery: .52

 

It is telling me that Mastery will eventually be more valuble than everything else because of the way it scales

http://cl.ly/image/053z0G3k3l1U

 

but other similarly geared locks are getting wildly different results than me. Can somebody confirm this is correct? It would be greatly appreciated.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/kiljaeden/Warlolck/advanced

Not sure if you manually typed in that URL address, but Warlock is misspelled.  Also, please refer to Kari's post that links my thoughts and concerns on Simulationcraft.  Cheers.

[Ilyenna 1]

Not dependant..just was wondering how to maximize its use. So I guess if you're not dumping at the same time or combining it with high int procs its more or less used to generate embers. Refresh immo with 15% more crit and stuff. Just wanted to bounce the idea off you. Ty zagam.