Zadina

Ben Brode on Promo Cards

Sign in to follow this  

6 posts in this topic

nXv6WsZ.jpg

A thread called 'Why was Old Murk-Eye removed as a collection reward?' rose to the front page of r/hearthstone yesterday and Ben Brode dropped by to share some insight on promo cards that have rotated out of Standard.

More than a year ago, when Standard and Wild were introduced to Hearthstone, Team 5 decided it was time to bid farewell to the following promo cards: Captain's Parrot, Old Murk-Eye, Elite Tauren Chieftain and Gelbin Mekkatorque. Yesterday, a Reddit user was wondering why these cards (and specifically the legendary Murloc one) weren't available anymore, while other users wanted to know why the team decided to keep these cards in Wild only.

Enter Hearthstone's Game Director Ben Brode, who answered to the original poster first. Ben repeated the team's statement from a year ago that Old Murk-Eye was removed because Charge minions have proved historically (and especially in 2016) problematic. He also explained that they removed the card as as a reward, because they wanted players to focus on acquiring Basic, Classic and Standard sets first and leave Wild last. Additionally, Ben characterised the whole concept of "promo" cards complex - which is quite a peculiar statement. Ultimately, if the team wanted to give away a free Legendary, they wouldn't give this one.

Blizzard LogoBen Brode

Hey there!

We had to make a call on "promo" cards: Should they be Standard forever? Or Wild?

I think it could have gone either way, but the opportunity to remove another Charge minion in Standard (Charge has been the cause of a lot of balance issues, historically), was hard to pass up. We also stopped Captain's Parrot from showing up in "random Beast" drops in Standard.

At the end of the day, we felt like Standard would be more fun without those cards. Maybe we should have just nerfed Murk Eye to remove Charge instead, but I actually like that it exists in Wild.

We removed it as a reward because we didn't want players to randomly unlock Wild before our yearly rotation, or before they initiated the unlock themselves by crafting a Wild card. Ideally new players move through the cards in this order: Basic > Classic > Standard-Legal > Wild.

In game design, you can eventually get players to very high levels of complexity, but starting with the most complex thing can turn new players off. We call it the "complexity curve", start with the basics, then layer in complexity. It's why you take Algebra before Calculus, and not the other way around. It's also one of the reasons why new players don't start with everything unlocked.

In some of the comments here I think players see it as a lost opportunity for a free Legendary. If we want to give out some other free Legendary (and that might be a good idea), I don't think doing it for this specific card (Charge, unlock Wild) is the right solution. (source)

Several people pressured Brode on that last issue: for example, one user stated that Old Murk-Eye could be given as a reward when a player crafts his/her first Wild card. However, Ben responded to all of them multiple times that he didn't think this was the ideal legendary to give to players for free (1, 2 and 3).

Ben explained his comment that "promo" cards can seem complex to new players, by saying that: "The more concepts we introduce, the more you have to learn, the more work it is" (source). When asked if the Hearthstone team planned to make more "promo" cards, Brode expressed his uncertainty on the issue.

Lastly, Patches the Pirate managed to sneak in (or more properly, charge into) this discussion. When somebody commented that Patches was printed even after the team acknowledged that Charge minions are problematic, Ben Brode answered:

Blizzard LogoBen Brode

At least Patches will someday rotate. We can get an ebb and flow to Standard this way. Classic cards are the baseline, and some of them are great to have around forever. We'll add more Charge minions, I'm sure. But doing it in rotating sets gives us a lot more control. (source)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am still wondering if they will keep rotating out cards from classic set and let it shrink more and more.

I was hoping they will use a nice system working well in other cards games which remove cards from basic sets too but include new ones as well or include some cards from an expansion (when it rotates out) to classic set.

If you play wild only you don't care I guess otherwise it feels like a loss even though they give the full dust value for cards rotating out from classic.

I can't see a drawback if they would do it that way instead of players seeing their long collected classic cards gone to wild only or am I wrong on this?

Edited by Caldyrvan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Caldyrvan said:

I am still wondering if they will keep rotating out cards from classic set and let it shrink more and more.

I was hoping they will use a nice system working well in other cards games which remove cards from basic sets too but include new ones as well or include some cards from an expansion (when it rotates out) to classic set.

If you play wild only you don't care I guess otherwise it feels like a loss even though they give the full dust value for cards rotating out from classic.

I can't see a drawback if they would do it that way instead of players seeing their long collected classic cards gone to wild only or am I wrong on this?

The thing is that, most of the time, they don't have to rotate classic cards out of Standard. Most of them are slowly being made obsolete by the new cards that are superior (Such as a 2 cost 3-2 classic card being replaced by a 2 cost 3-2 with taunt or other benefits). However, in the rare occasion, classic cards are or were overvalued, making it difficult to make an even better version of that card in an expansion. Or classic cards that were auto-includes for almost every deck (Azure Dragon says hi! As well as the old big game hunter)

 

For classic cards that are baseline, (i.e. an X cost card with the same X values for attack and health "plus one of either"), it is much easier to simply just make a new card that's better (Same as above but one additional effect, or even more powerful but situational such as requiring minions on the board).

 

It is unlikely that they will keep rotating classic cards out of standard unless they find another one that's considered OP. Acolyte of Pain and Aldor Peacekeeper for example might make that cut (Although they're - right now at least - considered situational enough that they've avoided attention to be cut or nerfed)

 

Long term, I think it is quite likely that they will introduce more classic cards (Although in that case more appropriately named basic cards as you mentioned); cards that have baseline stats like I mentioned above or ones situational enough with not too much synergy potential (To avoid unbalance risks) with new expansions. One such example would be Argent Tournament's Pit Fighter, being a 5 cost 5/6 that has no synergy. A card like that would be relatively likely to make it into a basic set.

 

The top priority for the hearthstone team however is certainly bringing out expansions, as that's where the money is, so while new basic cards are likely to be introduced, it's not a high priority.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm aware of all you said and I did not mean it should be a lot of cards, just enough to make ppl happy and still making money :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/19/2017 at 11:21 PM, Zadina said:

 

Blizzard LogoBen Brode

Classic cards are the baseline, and some of them are great to have around forever.

Yeah, except those you nerfed to the ground, moved to Wild or created power creep versions of.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/19/2017 at 1:21 PM, Zadina said:

 

In game design, you can eventually get players to very high levels of complexity, but starting with the most complex thing can turn new players off. We call it the "complexity curve", start with the basics, then layer in complexity. It's why you take Algebra before Calculus, and not the other way around. It's also one of the reasons why new players don't start with everything unlocked.

 

As a math major I take offense to this.  You learn Algebra before Calculus, not because Calculus is more difficult, because most of calculus is impossible without Algebra. . .

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Zadina
      The Season of Rastakhan has begun and today we have the first round of the Brawl of the Champions.
      As already explained, the Rumble Run is being brought into the Tavern Brawl and you can play one of the special Rumble Run decks against real opponents. Each class has three different Shrines, that promote different playstyles and are accompanied by premade decks that synergise with their respective Shrine.
      Here are the Shrines for this week:
      Druid: Bonds of Balance - At the end of your turn, gain Attack equal to your hero's Attack Hunter: Halazzi's Guise - Whenever you summon a Beast, it gains Rush, Taunt, or Poisonous. Mage: Jan'alai's Flame - Your Hero Power costs (O). Whenever it kills a minion, refresh it. Paladin: Shirvallah's Grace - After you cast a spell on a friendly minion, cast a copy of it on this one. Priest: Bwonsamdi's Tome - After you cast a spell, add a random Priest spell to your hand. Rogue: Bottled Terror - Your other minions have Stealth. Deathrattle: Give your minions +2 Attack. Shaman: Krag'wa's Grace - Your spells cost (2) less. Warlock: Blood Pact - Your spells cost Health instead of Mana. Warrior: Akali's Horn - Your minions have "Overkill: This can attack again". Unsurprisingly, the Shrines that are good in the Rumble Run are also effective versus actual opponents. This bunch of Shrines is quite decent, with the Priest and Mage ones being standouts. The weakest classes for this week are Warlock, Warrior and Hunter.
      The Brawl of the Champions itself, like all Tavern Brawls, rewards a Classic card pack upon victory. However, you can complete the seasonal repeatable quest by playing the Brawl 3 times to earn a Rastakhan's Rumble card pack.
    • By Zadina
      Joseph Magdalena is here to talk about the Season of Rastakhan event, which will begin on February 13.
      As we already know, this event will start in a couple of days and it will last until March 3. It's all about the Tavern Brawl mode during the three-week Season of Rastakhan as each week you will get a special quest to play 3 Tavern Brawls; the quest will award a Rastakhan's Rumble card pack.
      The Tavern Brawl will be the same each week and it's called the Brawl of Champions. Remember the Rumble Run? Well, now you will get to play against real opponents as one of the heroes of the Rumble Run, along with their special Shrine and complimentary deck. Since each class has 3 different Shrines in the Rumble Run, the Shrines for each class will be different each week and you will be able to swap classes if you choose so.
    • By Zadina
      Due to Update 13.2 going live a few hours later than intended, the Lunar New Year event will last one more day.
      The event will now finish on February 13 in the US and February 14 in Europe. Therefore, everyone will get an extra quest that awards both Gold and Arcane Dust! Don't forget that the day the Lunar Festival concludes, a new Tavern Brawl-centered event will begin: the Season of Rastakhan.
      CM_JesseHill
      Hey everyone!
      Due to the delays we hit yesterday with recent update pushing into the time for the Lunar New Year event, we are going to be extending the end date by a full day. The event will now last until February 13.
      Cheers and thanks again for your patience!
      (source)
    • By Zadina
      After a small delay, the latest Hearthstone update is here bringing changes to five cards and the Lunar Festival seasonal event. After the Lunar Festival, there will be a new event, the Season of Rastakhan, with thematic Tavern Brawls and special rewards.
      Some juicy card changes have been implemented with this update. Cold Blood, Flametongue Totem, Hunter's Mark and Emerald Spellstone have had their mana cost increased by 1, while Equality will now cost 4 mana (up from 2).
      With this patch, the Lunar New Year event is now available for a week. Starting from today and until February 12, you can login to get a free Golden Fireworks Tech and enjoy quests that award both Gold and Arcane Dust. The Lunar New Year Bundle is also available in the Shop for $20 or 20 euros; it contains 30 packs in total, 10 from each of the Year of the Raven expansions.
      Right after the Lunar Festival, a new event will start: the Season of Rastakhan will last from February 13 up to March 3. This event is focused on the Tavern Brawl mode, with three different Brawls centered around picking a Rumble Champion and a Loa shrine. Moreover, during that period each Wednesday you will get a special repeatable quest to play 3 Tavern Brawls. The reward for this quest is a Rastakhan's Rumble card pack, so in total you will get three packs.
      Two new card backs have been added: Mark of Hakkar and Kul Tiras (the March 2019 Ranked Play Season card back). There's a dedicated blog post about the Mark of Hakkar card back, which can be acquired if you play against another player who has it. Αnd how do you originally get it? Well, it seems some players have been randomly selected and already have it in their collection and it's their job to spread the madness...
      You can check out the card backs in the patch notes below:
      Blizzard Entertainment
      This Hearthstone update kicks off Lunar New Year with a bang and sets the stage for the upcoming Season of Rastakhan Tavern Brawl event. We also made some mobile optimizations and fixed some bugs.
      Read on for details!
      Events
      Lunar New Year
      Celebrate Lunar New Year 2019 from February 5 through February 12!

      Log in during the event to get a free Rare Golden Fireworks Tech card! Complete celebratory Quests that award both Gold and Arcane Dust! Share spectacular New Year emotes! The Lunar New Year Bundle – Get 30 card packs (10 each from The Witchwood, The Boomsday Project, and Rastakhan’s Rumble) for a special price. Available through February 12.
       
      Season of Rastakhan

      February 13 through March 3 earn glory for the Loa—and card packs!—over three weeks of Tavern Brawls during the Brawl of Champions.
      The Brawl of Champions – A series of three special Tavern Brawls. Choose a rumble Champion and harness the power of each Loa’s Shrine to prove which Loa is the mightiest! Each Champion will have a new deck and Shrine each week! New repeatable Quest: For the Glory of Rastakhan – Play a Tavern Brawl 3 times to earn a Rastakhan’s Rumble card pack. Available each Wednesday when the Tavern Brawl starts. Earn up to three Rastakhan’s Rumble card packs over the course of the Season of Rastakhan!
      Card Changes
      Be sure to read the Upcoming Balance Update – February 2019 blog for details
      Cold Blood – Now costs 2 Mana. (Up from 1)
      Flametongue Totem – Now costs 3 mana. (Up from 2)
      Equality – Now costs 4 mana. (Up from 2)
      Hunter’s Mark – Now costs 2 mana. (Up from 1)
      Emerald Spellstone – Now costs 6 mana. (Up from 5)
      Non-Basic cards can be disenchanted for their full Arcane Dust value for two weeks.
       
      Card Backs
      Mark of Hakkar Kul Tiras Game Improvements
      Fixed an issue that could cause cards that copy and set minion Health to a specific value to incorrectly activate “while damaged” effects. Fixed an issue that would cause Augmented Elekk to shuffle a copy of a card drawn by Tracking into the deck. Corrupted Blood no longer benefits from Spell Damage. Spellbender can no longer attack itself when activated by The Beast Within. Corrupting Mist and Reckless Experimenter can no longer incorrectly cause Immortal Prelate to be removed from the hand or deck. Fixed an instability issue that could occur when Book of Spectres drew multiple copies of Corrupted Blood. Fixed an instability issue that could occur when attempting to view an enemy minion as it’s being returned to an opponent’s hand. Gral, the Shark now works properly when executing its battlecry more times than there are minions left in your deck. Mecha’thun that has been transformed will no longer incorrectly play its original effects when destroyed. Astral Raptor Overkill animations will no longer play multiple times. Copied Zombeasts now correctly keep their Zombeast visual aura. The enchantments from Clutchmother Zavas now collapse into a single enchantment banner. [Rumble Run] Fixed a bug where damage from healing due to Bwonsamdi's Covenant was not properly being credited to the source of the damage. [Rumble Run] Fireslinger now stops casting Fireballs if there are no valid targets. [Rumble Run] Fixed an issue with Tribute from the Tides not granting extra battlecries if it was damaged while buffed. [Rumble Run] Casting an Overload spell while affected by Electra Stormsurge now triggers Overcharged Totem once for each cast. [Rumble Run] Fixed an instability issue that could occur when playing Bouncing Blade while the Pirate’s Mark Shrine is in play. [Mobile] To reduce the initial size of the Hearthstone mobile app, some sound files are now an optional download. [Mobile] Hand and mana are now moved aside when Choose One cards are displayed. [Android] Background downloads are now displayed as a notification. (source)