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Lilith's Summoner Is Rathma Confirmed

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There's been a lot of discussion as to who exactly the shapeshifting pale bald man that manipulated the treasure hunters to summon Lilith was, with many people saying it was Rathma, and others vehemently claiming that it couldn't be.

Well, today we seemingly have proof that it is indeed Lilith and Inarius' son, as youtuber TeKo found out by putting the cinematic into some video editing software and finding some old editor comments from Blizzard! 

So, Rathma seems to have had a change of heart since he was last seen, as he was actively trying to prevent Lilith from returning to Sanctuary back in the Sin War (as per the wiki). He was also the first Necromancer and fought for balance together with Trag'Oul, which may indicate we're going to be learning more about those topics, and it's a pretty safe bet the Necromancer class will be returning as well - whether at launch or in a later expansion.

As a side note, let me say how refreshing it is to see a youtube video that doesn't take such a relatively simple discovery and then expands the video to 10-15 minutes by infinite inane talk about nothing just for monetization's sake.

And here's the full  cinematic once more:

 

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I actually thought this would be the Nephalem.

At the end of D3 Tyrael says that the Nephalem became incredibly powerful. He could use the power for good or doom them all.

So I thought the Nephalem made his decision and decided to bring Lilith to this world. Because she was known to be against the eternal conflict between heaven and hell. Just like the Nephalem.

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Perhaps Rathma considers it as an act of bringing balance to Sanctuary. Is he an enemy though? If it backfires on him, then he might end as an ally. But who knows, maybe some Nephalem will end up being corrupted and we will have to put down some of the former heroes. Not a new idea, since we had to do the same in D2 with those from D1.

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Rathma actually opposed Lilith during the Sin War, and since the Priests of Rathma are all about upholding the Balance, I wonder what would be enough of a threat that made him summon her back to Sanctuary?

That makes the whole "Blessed Mother" thing quite more literal, though. Very interesting, indeed!

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4 minutes ago, Draketh said:

Rathma actually opposed Lilith during the Sin War, and since the Priests of Rathma are all about upholding the Balance, I wonder what would be enough of a threat that made him summon her back to Sanctuary?

That makes the whole "Blessed Mother" thing quite more literal, though. Very interesting, indeed!

Also, Lilith might have changed throughout the many many years as well. But she is being billed as the main villain for D4 so yea, it's a bit confusing. Could be one of those "yea she's evil but she's the only one that can stop huge big terrible thing".

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6 minutes ago, Starym said:

Also, Lilith might have changed throughout the many many years as well. But she is being billed as the main villain for D4 so yea, it's a bit confusing. Could be one of those "yea she's evil but she's the only one that can stop huge big terrible thing".

Kerrigan becoming a Xel'naga, Sylvanas and her endgame shrouded in mystery, now Lilith being summoned back by someone who opposed her, most likely due to some greater evil threat...

 

I see a pattern with female villains! Coming soon in Overwatch 2: Widowmaker redemption arc :P

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1 hour ago, Starym said:

As a side note, let me say how refreshing it is to see a youtube video that doesn't take such a relatively simple discovery and then expands the video to 10-15 minutes by infinite inane talk about nothing just for monetization's sake.

+1 ;>

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1 hour ago, Draketh said:

Rathma actually opposed Lilith during the Sin War, and since the Priests of Rathma are all about upholding the Balance, I wonder what would be enough of a threat that made him summon her back to Sanctuary?

That makes the whole "Blessed Mother" thing quite more literal, though. Very interesting, indeed!

I think it's likely that the Balance has been tipped in favor of the angels since Malthael's defeat. All of the demon lords have been forced to retreat into Hell to recuperate. I think it's likely that the angels are plotting to put an end to Hell once and for all, before the demons get a chance to fully recover.

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15 hours ago, Starym said:

As a side note, let me say how refreshing it is to see a youtube video that doesn't take such a relatively simple discovery and then expands the video to 10-15 minutes by infinite inane talk about nothing just for monetization's sake.

Preach! It's insanely difficult to find gaming-related channels that aren't obnoxious in some way, and this in particular is unbearable.

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The lore also indicates that Rathma disliked both of his parents different but domineering methods, so him bringing Lilith back could actually be a response to something initiated by Inarius, who may have used the time passing since the Dark Exile to escape his imprisonment by Mephisto that was arranged by the Angiris Council. I would imagine that by now, Inarius is no longer sane and bent on destroying everything, angel, demon, and nephalem alike.

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18 hours ago, Alkasar said:

I actually thought this would be the Nephalem.

At the end of D3 Tyrael says that the Nephalem became incredibly powerful. He could use the power for good or doom them all.

So I thought the Nephalem made his decision and decided to bring Lilith to this world. Because she was known to be against the eternal conflict between heaven and hell. Just like the Nephalem.

Yes, I thought the same. I really wanna see how this plotpoint will be unfolded in Diablo IV, because the end of RoS left a massive cliffhanger regarding it. I wonder if the Nephalem from D3 will actually make any sort of appearance in D4.

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2 hours ago, Halock said:

Man, someone at Blizzard is going to be kicking themselves.

I don't think Blizzard really thought of this as some super secret thing, since they did make him look EXACTLY as he does in the lore. It's mostly that part of the community that went hard at this not being him.

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4 hours ago, SidonisAntares said:

The lore also indicates that Rathma disliked both of his parents different but domineering methods, so him bringing Lilith back could actually be a response to something initiated by Inarius, who may have used the time passing since the Dark Exile to escape his imprisonment by Mephisto that was arranged by the Angiris Council. I would imagine that by now, Inarius is no longer sane and bent on destroying everything, angel, demon, and nephalem alike.

That's also a possibility. Inarius already seemed like he was having a nervous breakdown after his defeat at the hands of Uldyssian. Combine that with centuries of torture at the hands of Mephisto, and if he's not kill-crazy, then he's completely dead inside.

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It's not confirmed. The literal and entire argument in favor of Rathma that I've seen from anyone, aside from this video, is "he called her Blessed Mother" (anyone from Sanctuary could do that), "I knew it all along it was so obvious", and "he's wise and strong and important so it has to be him it just has to". This whole situation is actually embarrassing and I don't mean for Blizzard.

The video itself a short and basic show of text in a video file that could be the an error, a false flag, or a complete hoax. It was posted by a random Overwatch player and took an entire month to surface during which time no actual dataminer showed with such info from what would've been an easy and obvious target. Finally, there's still no clearly unique and definitive reasoning for him being Rathma; matching one or two details is not proof, especially when there's more details that don't match him and do match someone else - Mendeln. Actual Blizzard confirmation of Rathma would need to be justified by retconning of both lore and characterization.

Edited by Karmakaze

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12 hours ago, Starym said:

I don't think Blizzard really thought of this as some super secret thing, since they did make him look EXACTLY as he does in the lore. It's mostly that part of the community that went hard at this not being him.

Oh, really? I didn't realise there was any description of him before this. 

(Although I'm not a big Diablo person so you could probably say something like 'there are angels in this game, you know' and I'd look at you in surprise)

6 hours ago, Karmakaze said:

It was posted by a random Overwatch player and took an entire month to surface during which time no actual dataminer showed with such info from what would've been an easy and obvious target. 

I mean, I don't have much to argue, but you might be overstretching a little on that point. As far as I'm aware, you can't mine data from a visual clip? I would assume the dataminers were hiding away in their natural habitat somewhere, waiting for a beta invite. And what he asserted is easily verifiable.

And as for obvious, did you know you could download cinematics from the blizzard website? I didn't. ? Took me a couple of minutes to find it just now. Nice source for wallpapers, though. 

Edited by Halock

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7 hours ago, Karmakaze said:

It's not confirmed. The literal and entire argument in favor of Rathma that I've seen from anyone, aside from this video, is "he called her Blessed Mother" (anyone from Sanctuary could do that), "I knew it all along it was so obvious", and "he's wise and strong and important so it has to be him it just has to". This whole situation is actually embarrassing and I don't mean for Blizzard.

The video itself a short and basic show of text in a video file that could be the an error, a false flag, or a complete hoax. It was posted by a random Overwatch player and took an entire month to surface during which time no actual dataminer showed with such info from what would've been an easy and obvious target. Finally, there's still no clearly unique and definitive reasoning for him being Rathma; matching one or two details is not proof, especially when there's more details that don't match him and do match someone else - Mendeln. Actual Blizzard confirmation of Rathma would need to be justified by retconning of both lore and characterization.

Clear Blizzard notes in the video aside, why is everyone hell-bent on it NOT being Rathma? I don't understand this at all. Yes he hated Lilith and fought against her coming back before but a GIGANTIC amount of time passed since then and:

a) People change in their short lifespans, let alone in the centuries since that description of Rathma you're all clinging to happened

b) The situation in Sanctuary has DRASTICALLY changed since Rathma's last sighting. There are infinite scenarios where brining Lilith back serves the balance and Rathma's interests/goals.

c) There's magic and possession and mind control and 57 other things that could explain the change in Rathma, we literally know nothing of the circumstances that lead to that cinematic.

d) It's Blizzard writing, so the retcon is actually most likely and they just forgot/ignored/didn't care at all about Rathma's history.

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As I have posted before, it is always possible Rathma changed his views or it's something that's going to bring balance to the world, in his opinion at least. Would have been a classic plot twist, if whole plan backfires and balance is still in danger, so we're going to clean his mess. In this scenario, it's easy to picture Rathma as sort of unwilling ally. Predictable, but nothing unusual for this type of writing. Well, unless it is indeed just some cultist, rather than Rathma himself, his follower perhaps?

With Prime Evils scattered, Angels are now in better position, however Malthael's death probably evens it out a bit.

Edited by Arcling

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Is Rathma more loyal to Trag'Oul or his creators? In the end that may sway him one way or the other over time.

I just pray for no cackling mustache twirling and hope for some believable motivations from the character cast.

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6 hours ago, TyZone said:

Is Rathma more loyal to Trag'Oul or his creators? In the end that may sway him one way or the other over time.

I just pray for no cackling mustache twirling and hope for some believable motivations from the character cast.

I think Trag'Oul was more like an ally to him. Writers have a lot of freedom here, they can just go anywhere with this, considering how little we know about him.

Agree about villains, hopefully no one will act like Azmodan. I still hate that Deckard was killed by some rather minor witch character with quite silly design, just no more of this. Not to mention things like Belial's obvious deception.

 

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On 12/1/2019 at 11:44 PM, Alkasar said:

I actually thought this would be the Nephalem.

At the end of D3 Tyrael says that the Nephalem became incredibly powerful. He could use the power for good or doom them all.

So I thought the Nephalem made his decision and decided to bring Lilith to this world. Because she was known to be against the eternal conflict between heaven and hell. Just like the Nephalem.

Umh, isn't Ratma the first Nephalem? A Nephalem is the mix of angel and demon, he is the firstborn of those, so...

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Nobody's hellbent that it's not Rathma. Most of the community is, and was from the start, hellbent that it *is*. As far as I've seen I'm unfortunately in a very small minority. My stance is only that nothing so far, including this video, is valid proof.

As for my comment about real dataminers, consider my use of the term loose if necessary. And whether *I* thought of doing it is irrelevant, because I'm not one of them.

And again, whether Blizzard confirms it now (which they do still need to) or not, part of the embarrassment of the situation is that a certain somebody got his sights on the video almost immediately after it was put up and proceeded to immediately make his own - not just covering but supporting it. It got out of control in its infancy - I was there early as well, and it was fast.

Edited by Karmakaze

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6 hours ago, Znifler said:

Umh, isn't Ratma the first Nephalem? A Nephalem is the mix of angel and demon, he is the firstborn of those, so...

Yes he is ? But I meant the player character, not any Nephalem.

Maybe they tie the D3 ending in somehow. Even if the Player Character from D3 is just represented by a grave.

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On 12/2/2019 at 6:48 PM, Karmakaze said:

It's not confirmed. The literal and entire argument in favor of Rathma that I've seen from anyone, aside from this video, is "he called her Blessed Mother" (anyone from Sanctuary could do that), "I knew it all along it was so obvious", and "he's wise and strong and important so it has to be him it just has to". This whole situation is actually embarrassing and I don't mean for Blizzard.

The video itself a short and basic show of text in a video file that could be the an error, a false flag, or a complete hoax. It was posted by a random Overwatch player and took an entire month to surface during which time no actual dataminer showed with such info from what would've been an easy and obvious target. Finally, there's still no clearly unique and definitive reasoning for him being Rathma; matching one or two details is not proof, especially when there's more details that don't match him and do match someone else - Mendeln. Actual Blizzard confirmation of Rathma would need to be justified by retconning of both lore and characterization.

The most likely answer is usually the simplest, and in this case the simplest answer is that a video that started out as an internal video was not properly scrubbed before public release. There certainly are other reasons that it could be, but as the complexity grows so does the unlikeliness.

I'm more intrigued as to why you think it would be Mendeln though, given that he was not an immortal born nephalem like Rathma, rather an awakened nephalem from Lilith's altering of the Worldstone precluding the events of the Sin War. Presumably he should have died of old age, and steps to circumvent that would be a betrayal of the Balance. 

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I'm not sure we know enough about later-gen or reawakened Nephalem, or about "The Balance", to really say those things. And, otherwise, Mendeln has no less actual explanation for being there and doing that than Rathma does (if anything, as I suggested I think, he has more).

I'm gonna admit that I personally would prefer it to be Mendeln, but I genuinely think we haven't proven anything.

Edited by Karmakaze

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      Hello everyone,
      I'm excited to share with you our vision and our process for making monsters in Diablo IV.
      With monsters, success requires that many different things come together, but it starts with the player feeling satisfied in killing it. That means the monster needs to visually match its gameplay and have a gory/demonic twist to it. They should look like something you have not seen before as well as taking something visually familiar and brushing it with a Diablo paint brush. That Diablo brush applies a level of detail, an understanding of gameplay needs, a level of artistry, and the demonic Diablo theme to all our monsters.
      Visual Design and Gameplay Intent
      For me, everything starts with a goal. Typically, it's a goal from design on what this monster needs to do and what the player experience should be. Making games is a collaboration. Sometimes a visual concept helps drive an idea, while in others a paper design is enough.
      The Blood Bishop
      Our game design goal for the Blood Bishop was to make a caster who would cast direct damage and create AOE bombs for area of denial. As for the visual notes, we wanted a high-level boss based on vampiric blood and magic. We knew we wanted to double down on the notion of a heart shape for the function of the blood magic. That naturally led to the notion of arteries creating these blood clots that explode to cast the AOE effect design needs. An exposed beating heart was the natural visual choice. So, the organic pulsing we see, the flowing arteries, and the blood-based VFX all combined to reach an aligned goal the team could get behind. The success here is when the game design needs were met visually in a true Diablo way.
      The Skeleton Lord
      This process was similar, but this time we had a visual concept to work from.
      This undead Skeleton Lord is made of fused skeleton and body parts, with sinew and blood connecting it together—something we felt fit our game visually. That led to a Design Lead wanting to create a fight based on this character. The Design team was able to create a unique fight based on bone visuals, summoning skeletons, bone walls to restrict pathing, and leveraging the giant staff—one attack has the Skeleton Lord smashing the staff into the ground and creating a shower of exploding bone shards. Even though the art was created first, the Design team leveraged its look to help theme a fun and interesting fight we all enjoy.
      The Right Artistic Detail for the Game
      We also need to look at our assets from two main focal points. Our game camera and a closer full body size camera. This means we need to understand what is important and what is supporting these elements in terms of overall shape language and finer secondary and tertiary details.
      Level of artistic detail is always a challenge. Details need to be readable for the game, colors need to group well, silhouettes need to stand out, as well as being built for performance and movement. Understanding this is key to allowing our monsters to look great from our isometric camera while also delivering stunning details up close.
      This Spider feeding upon and birthing spider spawn from a bloated corpse has a great visual design.
      The spindly legs and back thorax instantly tell you what it is. That thin look of the legs as it moves down to a thicker body give it a nice balance to settle the shape language from top to bottom. The saturated red of the spider, on top of the cooler and more subdued body, help pop the spider visually so your eye catches it as soon as they show up on screen. When we look closer, you can see the spectacular highlights on the bloated body, the torn and pulled flesh, and the bulging pustules. So, up close gruesome details are visible from the game camera because of the clear shape and color grouping.
      This succubus is another great example of an interesting and clear visual read from gameplay, with finer details that don't get in the way of the game camera but really raise the visual bar.
      At the game camera we see a familiar silhouette. A winged demon hovering to seduce its prey and attack with magic from a distance. As you look closer, you see intricate details in the cloths, translucent skin on the wings, as well as materials like gold clasps, stitching, and embroidery on the outfit. We also see the wings are attached at the base of the head. A detail that needs a closer look to see but doesn’t complicate the look from different cameras.
      A Modern Pipeline
      In order to achieve this, we needed a process and technology to realize these amazing and, honestly, disturbing creations. To do that we have built a world class team creating monsters and demons at a level of quality that raises the bar for the Diablo series.
      PBR gives us the ability to create surfaces and materials that look realistic and accurately react to lighting in the world. Leather can look like leather, metals like metals, and organic surfaces can feel appropriately squishy and fleshy by comparison.
      This Knight is covered head to toe in metal and fabric that reacts differently based on lighting. You can see nice details and material breaks on the hard surfaces that your eye expects to see. This detail grounds us in a world we all visually know and understand. The difference from a scale pattern of finer metal to large, hammered iron next to gold trim is readily apparent.
      Organic surfaces also are represented accurately in our engine. Fur, bone, flesh, and blood are all visible and react to light correctly. This is a Diablo game, after all, and we know these materials will be important.
      So that is a brief rundown of some of the things we look at and value when it comes to monsters in Diablo IV. We really enjoy creating enemies, monsters, and demonic creatures that bring out an emotional response from our players, from fear or revulsion to the excitement of slaying them in true Diablo fashion.
      In closing, I'd like to say that there are moments as a developer where you are just making the game, day-in and day-out, and you don't always take time to appreciate the craft on display that you are privileged to see every day. I love that we are doing these blogs to give you all some insight into our progress and process. It's a great opportunity for us to reflect on the journey, share our art, and appreciate the craft of our teammates. We hope you like what you see, and please share your comments on your platform of choice. We love to hear community feedback—it's really been a labor of love and an honor to create for you, and we can't wait for you to play it!
      Thank you for joining us and keep an eye out for our upcoming blog update next quarter!
      -The Diablo IV Team
       
    • By Staff
      During an interview on all things Diablo, Rod Ferguson, Executive Producer for the franchise, mentioned the next Diablo 4 quarterly update (which should be coming by the end of this month) will be focusing on characters and character art. Diablo community manager PezRadar also confirmed that in a reddit thread:
      D4 Quarterly Update (Source)
      Edit: Upon closer inspection he said "Character Art". I blame the cheap headset mic for the error on my end ?
       
      Correct, Character Art. It will be asset heavy. The art team have put in a good amount of work on the blog.
    • By Staff
      We've covered all the BlizzConline news and changes to D4 as it happened, but now it's time to take a look at some of the direct gameplay footage as well! 
      We have two videos to take a look at, one focusing on pure Rogue class gameplay exclusively (with in-game sounds etc.) and the other just highlights/clips used in the various announcements and panels. The first video goes over basically all the bacground footage used and is also very Rogue-focused, but it's mostly the clips strung together into one longer video:
      The second is an actual gameplay session with in-game sounds, which gives us a much better idea of what the class will play like:
      And finally, the Rogue announce cinematic one more time!
    • By Staff
      We're getting a lot of additional information during this Diablo 4 panel, and we'll be summarizing it all here.
      We're starting with the Rogue, as we get another look at the video. Also, apparently ears will actually come into play in the game as well. Ears factor into the World PvP aspect An emphasis on the adaptability of the Rogue. Swords and daggers, bows and corssbows usable as weapons. A lot of character customization. Combo points, Shadow Realm and Exploit Weakness are the Rogues specializations. Class specific quests, depending on your specializations. You work with different Rogue factions. Weapon Imbues - you can add poison, ice, etc. to your weapons. Rogue seems to be the current PvP top choice. Mount customizations, hoof plates, trophies, armor. You can change the speed of the horse with horseshoes etc. Rogue rains down arrows as her dismount ability. Mount can't get damaged, but you will be dismounted if you get hit. Camps are strongholds of evil and are permanent - when you defeat the camp you get a new waypoint and it unlocks for everyone else in the world as well. New quests, vendors, dungeons etc. appear after you take over a camp. There's climbing, jumping across caverns etc, much more verticality. Mephisto's hatred is coming up into the world, creating fields for PvP! You can earn Shards of Hatred, not only from killing players, and then you can turn them into currency you can use around the Fields of Hatred. The purification spots will be PvP hotspots as others try to stop you and take your Shards. You can collect Shards in PvE, but when you cleanse them you are marked for PvP. Unique cosmetics, mounts etc from the PvP currency. As you collect the Shards you become a Vessel of Hatred, becoming marked on the map and players will come after you. If you survive, you get a big bonus. For now ears are just cool trophies, with character names of the players you killed. And here's the full panel:
       
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