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Lilith's Summoner Is Rathma Confirmed

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There's been a lot of discussion as to who exactly the shapeshifting pale bald man that manipulated the treasure hunters to summon Lilith was, with many people saying it was Rathma, and others vehemently claiming that it couldn't be.

Well, today we seemingly have proof that it is indeed Lilith and Inarius' son, as youtuber TeKo found out by putting the cinematic into some video editing software and finding some old editor comments from Blizzard! 

So, Rathma seems to have had a change of heart since he was last seen, as he was actively trying to prevent Lilith from returning to Sanctuary back in the Sin War (as per the wiki). He was also the first Necromancer and fought for balance together with Trag'Oul, which may indicate we're going to be learning more about those topics, and it's a pretty safe bet the Necromancer class will be returning as well - whether at launch or in a later expansion.

As a side note, let me say how refreshing it is to see a youtube video that doesn't take such a relatively simple discovery and then expands the video to 10-15 minutes by infinite inane talk about nothing just for monetization's sake.

And here's the full  cinematic once more:

 

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I actually thought this would be the Nephalem.

At the end of D3 Tyrael says that the Nephalem became incredibly powerful. He could use the power for good or doom them all.

So I thought the Nephalem made his decision and decided to bring Lilith to this world. Because she was known to be against the eternal conflict between heaven and hell. Just like the Nephalem.

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Perhaps Rathma considers it as an act of bringing balance to Sanctuary. Is he an enemy though? If it backfires on him, then he might end as an ally. But who knows, maybe some Nephalem will end up being corrupted and we will have to put down some of the former heroes. Not a new idea, since we had to do the same in D2 with those from D1.

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Rathma actually opposed Lilith during the Sin War, and since the Priests of Rathma are all about upholding the Balance, I wonder what would be enough of a threat that made him summon her back to Sanctuary?

That makes the whole "Blessed Mother" thing quite more literal, though. Very interesting, indeed!

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4 minutes ago, Draketh said:

Rathma actually opposed Lilith during the Sin War, and since the Priests of Rathma are all about upholding the Balance, I wonder what would be enough of a threat that made him summon her back to Sanctuary?

That makes the whole "Blessed Mother" thing quite more literal, though. Very interesting, indeed!

Also, Lilith might have changed throughout the many many years as well. But she is being billed as the main villain for D4 so yea, it's a bit confusing. Could be one of those "yea she's evil but she's the only one that can stop huge big terrible thing".

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6 minutes ago, Starym said:

Also, Lilith might have changed throughout the many many years as well. But she is being billed as the main villain for D4 so yea, it's a bit confusing. Could be one of those "yea she's evil but she's the only one that can stop huge big terrible thing".

Kerrigan becoming a Xel'naga, Sylvanas and her endgame shrouded in mystery, now Lilith being summoned back by someone who opposed her, most likely due to some greater evil threat...

 

I see a pattern with female villains! Coming soon in Overwatch 2: Widowmaker redemption arc :P

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1 hour ago, Starym said:

As a side note, let me say how refreshing it is to see a youtube video that doesn't take such a relatively simple discovery and then expands the video to 10-15 minutes by infinite inane talk about nothing just for monetization's sake.

+1 ;>

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1 hour ago, Draketh said:

Rathma actually opposed Lilith during the Sin War, and since the Priests of Rathma are all about upholding the Balance, I wonder what would be enough of a threat that made him summon her back to Sanctuary?

That makes the whole "Blessed Mother" thing quite more literal, though. Very interesting, indeed!

I think it's likely that the Balance has been tipped in favor of the angels since Malthael's defeat. All of the demon lords have been forced to retreat into Hell to recuperate. I think it's likely that the angels are plotting to put an end to Hell once and for all, before the demons get a chance to fully recover.

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15 hours ago, Starym said:

As a side note, let me say how refreshing it is to see a youtube video that doesn't take such a relatively simple discovery and then expands the video to 10-15 minutes by infinite inane talk about nothing just for monetization's sake.

Preach! It's insanely difficult to find gaming-related channels that aren't obnoxious in some way, and this in particular is unbearable.

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The lore also indicates that Rathma disliked both of his parents different but domineering methods, so him bringing Lilith back could actually be a response to something initiated by Inarius, who may have used the time passing since the Dark Exile to escape his imprisonment by Mephisto that was arranged by the Angiris Council. I would imagine that by now, Inarius is no longer sane and bent on destroying everything, angel, demon, and nephalem alike.

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18 hours ago, Alkasar said:

I actually thought this would be the Nephalem.

At the end of D3 Tyrael says that the Nephalem became incredibly powerful. He could use the power for good or doom them all.

So I thought the Nephalem made his decision and decided to bring Lilith to this world. Because she was known to be against the eternal conflict between heaven and hell. Just like the Nephalem.

Yes, I thought the same. I really wanna see how this plotpoint will be unfolded in Diablo IV, because the end of RoS left a massive cliffhanger regarding it. I wonder if the Nephalem from D3 will actually make any sort of appearance in D4.

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2 hours ago, Halock said:

Man, someone at Blizzard is going to be kicking themselves.

I don't think Blizzard really thought of this as some super secret thing, since they did make him look EXACTLY as he does in the lore. It's mostly that part of the community that went hard at this not being him.

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4 hours ago, SidonisAntares said:

The lore also indicates that Rathma disliked both of his parents different but domineering methods, so him bringing Lilith back could actually be a response to something initiated by Inarius, who may have used the time passing since the Dark Exile to escape his imprisonment by Mephisto that was arranged by the Angiris Council. I would imagine that by now, Inarius is no longer sane and bent on destroying everything, angel, demon, and nephalem alike.

That's also a possibility. Inarius already seemed like he was having a nervous breakdown after his defeat at the hands of Uldyssian. Combine that with centuries of torture at the hands of Mephisto, and if he's not kill-crazy, then he's completely dead inside.

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It's not confirmed. The literal and entire argument in favor of Rathma that I've seen from anyone, aside from this video, is "he called her Blessed Mother" (anyone from Sanctuary could do that), "I knew it all along it was so obvious", and "he's wise and strong and important so it has to be him it just has to". This whole situation is actually embarrassing and I don't mean for Blizzard.

The video itself a short and basic show of text in a video file that could be the an error, a false flag, or a complete hoax. It was posted by a random Overwatch player and took an entire month to surface during which time no actual dataminer showed with such info from what would've been an easy and obvious target. Finally, there's still no clearly unique and definitive reasoning for him being Rathma; matching one or two details is not proof, especially when there's more details that don't match him and do match someone else - Mendeln. Actual Blizzard confirmation of Rathma would need to be justified by retconning of both lore and characterization.

Edited by Karmakaze

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12 hours ago, Starym said:

I don't think Blizzard really thought of this as some super secret thing, since they did make him look EXACTLY as he does in the lore. It's mostly that part of the community that went hard at this not being him.

Oh, really? I didn't realise there was any description of him before this. 

(Although I'm not a big Diablo person so you could probably say something like 'there are angels in this game, you know' and I'd look at you in surprise)

6 hours ago, Karmakaze said:

It was posted by a random Overwatch player and took an entire month to surface during which time no actual dataminer showed with such info from what would've been an easy and obvious target. 

I mean, I don't have much to argue, but you might be overstretching a little on that point. As far as I'm aware, you can't mine data from a visual clip? I would assume the dataminers were hiding away in their natural habitat somewhere, waiting for a beta invite. And what he asserted is easily verifiable.

And as for obvious, did you know you could download cinematics from the blizzard website? I didn't. 😄 Took me a couple of minutes to find it just now. Nice source for wallpapers, though. 

Edited by Halock

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7 hours ago, Karmakaze said:

It's not confirmed. The literal and entire argument in favor of Rathma that I've seen from anyone, aside from this video, is "he called her Blessed Mother" (anyone from Sanctuary could do that), "I knew it all along it was so obvious", and "he's wise and strong and important so it has to be him it just has to". This whole situation is actually embarrassing and I don't mean for Blizzard.

The video itself a short and basic show of text in a video file that could be the an error, a false flag, or a complete hoax. It was posted by a random Overwatch player and took an entire month to surface during which time no actual dataminer showed with such info from what would've been an easy and obvious target. Finally, there's still no clearly unique and definitive reasoning for him being Rathma; matching one or two details is not proof, especially when there's more details that don't match him and do match someone else - Mendeln. Actual Blizzard confirmation of Rathma would need to be justified by retconning of both lore and characterization.

Clear Blizzard notes in the video aside, why is everyone hell-bent on it NOT being Rathma? I don't understand this at all. Yes he hated Lilith and fought against her coming back before but a GIGANTIC amount of time passed since then and:

a) People change in their short lifespans, let alone in the centuries since that description of Rathma you're all clinging to happened

b) The situation in Sanctuary has DRASTICALLY changed since Rathma's last sighting. There are infinite scenarios where brining Lilith back serves the balance and Rathma's interests/goals.

c) There's magic and possession and mind control and 57 other things that could explain the change in Rathma, we literally know nothing of the circumstances that lead to that cinematic.

d) It's Blizzard writing, so the retcon is actually most likely and they just forgot/ignored/didn't care at all about Rathma's history.

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As I have posted before, it is always possible Rathma changed his views or it's something that's going to bring balance to the world, in his opinion at least. Would have been a classic plot twist, if whole plan backfires and balance is still in danger, so we're going to clean his mess. In this scenario, it's easy to picture Rathma as sort of unwilling ally. Predictable, but nothing unusual for this type of writing. Well, unless it is indeed just some cultist, rather than Rathma himself, his follower perhaps?

With Prime Evils scattered, Angels are now in better position, however Malthael's death probably evens it out a bit.

Edited by Arcling

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Is Rathma more loyal to Trag'Oul or his creators? In the end that may sway him one way or the other over time.

I just pray for no cackling mustache twirling and hope for some believable motivations from the character cast.

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6 hours ago, TyZone said:

Is Rathma more loyal to Trag'Oul or his creators? In the end that may sway him one way or the other over time.

I just pray for no cackling mustache twirling and hope for some believable motivations from the character cast.

I think Trag'Oul was more like an ally to him. Writers have a lot of freedom here, they can just go anywhere with this, considering how little we know about him.

Agree about villains, hopefully no one will act like Azmodan. I still hate that Deckard was killed by some rather minor witch character with quite silly design, just no more of this. Not to mention things like Belial's obvious deception.

 

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On 12/1/2019 at 11:44 PM, Alkasar said:

I actually thought this would be the Nephalem.

At the end of D3 Tyrael says that the Nephalem became incredibly powerful. He could use the power for good or doom them all.

So I thought the Nephalem made his decision and decided to bring Lilith to this world. Because she was known to be against the eternal conflict between heaven and hell. Just like the Nephalem.

Umh, isn't Ratma the first Nephalem? A Nephalem is the mix of angel and demon, he is the firstborn of those, so...

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Nobody's hellbent that it's not Rathma. Most of the community is, and was from the start, hellbent that it *is*. As far as I've seen I'm unfortunately in a very small minority. My stance is only that nothing so far, including this video, is valid proof.

As for my comment about real dataminers, consider my use of the term loose if necessary. And whether *I* thought of doing it is irrelevant, because I'm not one of them.

And again, whether Blizzard confirms it now (which they do still need to) or not, part of the embarrassment of the situation is that a certain somebody got his sights on the video almost immediately after it was put up and proceeded to immediately make his own - not just covering but supporting it. It got out of control in its infancy - I was there early as well, and it was fast.

Edited by Karmakaze

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6 hours ago, Znifler said:

Umh, isn't Ratma the first Nephalem? A Nephalem is the mix of angel and demon, he is the firstborn of those, so...

Yes he is 😄 But I meant the player character, not any Nephalem.

Maybe they tie the D3 ending in somehow. Even if the Player Character from D3 is just represented by a grave.

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On 12/2/2019 at 6:48 PM, Karmakaze said:

It's not confirmed. The literal and entire argument in favor of Rathma that I've seen from anyone, aside from this video, is "he called her Blessed Mother" (anyone from Sanctuary could do that), "I knew it all along it was so obvious", and "he's wise and strong and important so it has to be him it just has to". This whole situation is actually embarrassing and I don't mean for Blizzard.

The video itself a short and basic show of text in a video file that could be the an error, a false flag, or a complete hoax. It was posted by a random Overwatch player and took an entire month to surface during which time no actual dataminer showed with such info from what would've been an easy and obvious target. Finally, there's still no clearly unique and definitive reasoning for him being Rathma; matching one or two details is not proof, especially when there's more details that don't match him and do match someone else - Mendeln. Actual Blizzard confirmation of Rathma would need to be justified by retconning of both lore and characterization.

The most likely answer is usually the simplest, and in this case the simplest answer is that a video that started out as an internal video was not properly scrubbed before public release. There certainly are other reasons that it could be, but as the complexity grows so does the unlikeliness.

I'm more intrigued as to why you think it would be Mendeln though, given that he was not an immortal born nephalem like Rathma, rather an awakened nephalem from Lilith's altering of the Worldstone precluding the events of the Sin War. Presumably he should have died of old age, and steps to circumvent that would be a betrayal of the Balance. 

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I'm not sure we know enough about later-gen or reawakened Nephalem, or about "The Balance", to really say those things. And, otherwise, Mendeln has no less actual explanation for being there and doing that than Rathma does (if anything, as I suggested I think, he has more).

I'm gonna admit that I personally would prefer it to be Mendeln, but I genuinely think we haven't proven anything.

Edited by Karmakaze

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    • By Starym
      Here comes the previously announced blog from Lead Systems designer David Kim (formerly of StarCraft 2), in which he goes over the most talked about topics after the reveal. We find out more about the team's plans and thoughts on itemization, elective mode, ancient items, endgame progression, sources of power and key dungeons!
      You should really rad the whole thing as it's got a lot of info, but here are the new things mentioned:
      Elective mode will be the same as in D3, bind anything to anywhere Ancients won't be simple like in D3, feedback has changed their mind Endgame progression systems (aka paragon level equivalents) are still debated whether they should be finite or infinite
        System Design (source)
      I have learned over years of experience that the player community is an incredibly valuable resource to draw upon when designing and refining a game. By working together, we can achieve great things. The biggest challenge with parsing community feedback is that with so many opinions, the takeaways are rarely unanimous. Diablo IV is still very much in active development, but we plan to keep you in the loop as we continue to design and iterate so that you can be a part of what we’re building. I am so incredibly appreciative for all the feedback we’ve received so far and I’m eager to dive into some of the most talked about topics.
      Itemization
      We’re still working through all the feedback that came in regarding itemization and we’re actively discussing ways to add more depth and complexity to base items (including Rares), ways to add greater variety to item affixes to make those powers interesting and your choices meaningful, and ways to give players more freedom to choose how to customize items, so you can have fun exploring a wide range of effective gameplay possibilities instead of just looking up “the optimal build” online.
      We’ll go into way more depth regarding itemization in a separate post soon, but we don’t want to leave you hanging until then—so we’re going to update you on a few other topics now.
      These are some of the topics that we’re seeing come up most often, but if we’re missing something, please let us know and we will try to share our thoughts on those subjects as well in future updates.
       
      Elective Mode in Diablo IV
      There’s a misconception that Diablo IV will lock skills to specific slots because of the BlizzCon demo user interface. Like many other things in the demo, the UI is not final and we will support Elective Mode-style skill selection. Skill selection and assignment will always be completely open for all players.
       
      Ancient Items
      We completely agree with the community sentiment—Ancients as they are don’t really serve a clear purpose in Diablo IV. We should have done a better job of explaining the role of Ancient Items in Diablo IV. We had a preliminary direction to share, but you’ve brought up some great points, so we’re revisiting our designs with your feedback in mind. We hope to have more details to share in the follow-up itemization update.
       
      Endgame Progression System
      We haven’t decided whether the character leveling and experience system should be finite or infinite. We’ve been discussing the pros and cons of both and would love to hear your thoughts. There seems to be some concern around infinite being worse because it will eventually overshadow all the power granted by other sources. However, we can control how much power each system gives, whether it’s infinite or finite.
      For example, say we’re talking about thousands of hours of gameplay . . . within those thousands of hours, we could choose to create a finite system that grants 1,000,000 times more power than an infinite system, making it practically impossible for the infinite system to catch up in power.
      Also, power increase doesn’t need to be linear throughout the ranks—it can slow down as players reach higher levels. We believe the more important question is what experience feels best for players, and we can playtest various approaches to tuning to find the power curve that makes the most sense.
      We have a couple reasons for having a different experience system in addition to a level cap. A level cap gives us the ability to grant players a sense of completion. But for players who want to go deeper into the game, a second experience system allows us to capture the fun of achieving those really difficult endgame goals and ranks. We can also introduce additional depth through this system, because players will be more experienced with the game at this point. Ultimately, our goal is to create a meaningful system that provides clear choices depending on your preferred playstyle in the endgame.
       
      Sources of Power
      The community has shared many good points on the topic of power sources and we’re reevaluating how much power comes from each source at any given time.
      However, we want to clarify that in Diablo IV, power doesn’t come mostly from items. We want to have a good mix of power sources: characters naturally get stronger as they level up, skills have ranks that increase power, talents provide specific playstyle choices and additional character power, and of course items grant power and meaningful choices as well.
      Something else to keep in mind is Legendary powers are just one part of an item’s power, and they won’t invalidate all other Affixes due to how powerful they are. For example, two to three normal Affixes are currently equivalent in power to a Legendary power on most items.
       
      Keyed Dungeons
      A big question that’s come up is exactly how Keyed Dungeons are different from Rifts. Keyed Dungeons introduce greater challenges as their tiers increase through Dungeon Affixes. The majority of dungeons are real places in the world, and players will know some information about them including what types of monsters, events, and layouts to expect. With this information, as well as the specific Dungeon Affixes being displayed on the key, players will be able to strategize their approach before going into the dungeon. We believe this is the biggest change from Diablo III Rifts: the added planning and strategizing that takes place before you decide to run a Keyed Dungeon.
       
      Please continue to share your thoughts—we want you to be involved in the Diablo IV design process. I personally believe in making the best decisions for the game based on the strongest design ideas, no matter where they come from. My biggest hope is for us to be able to constructively discuss and iterate on the topics that are most important to the community—so keep the feedback coming!
       
      See you in Hell,
      David Kim
      Lead Systems Designer
      The Diablo IV Team
       
       

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    • By Starym
      We have some more Diablo 4 news, as Game Director Luis Barriga has composed a letter to the community talking about the game's reveal and the process going forward. The big takeaway is that we'll be getting another look at the game and its progress in February, as part of the quarterly updates starting next year, and we'll also get some clarification on the somewhat controversial item and affix system (primarily the attack and defence stats) in the next few from lead systems designer David Kim. He also re-emphasized the importance of feedback and that they're looking through all of it both on the official forums and external sites, so keep on discussing the game!
      Game Director (source)
      Dear Diablo family,
      Thank you all for a great BlizzCon. We unveiled Diablo IV with our announce cinematic, establishing the tone for our overall creative vision moving forward. We hope you all dug that.
      We also showed you our gameplay trailer, showcasing our classes, monsters, and open world, and invited you to take the first step in this journey toward Diablo IV together. We can tell from all the questions and excitement we’ve seen online and in-person that you are eager to find out more.
      The lines to our demo stations and Dark Gallery were packed all weekend long and we were floored by the overall reception—especially from long-time Diablo players. We were blown away by how often we met people who came back to play the demo again and again. The stories you shared with us about Diablo and what this series means to you moved us and inspire us to do our best.
      We’ve been taking this week to assess and discuss our takeaways from BlizzCon, and we love all the deep discussions happening around the art, features, systems, and world of Diablo IV. We’re also excited about a cool update we’re planning for you in February of next year. It will be the first in a series of quarterly updates where we’ll share behind-the-scenes looks at our progress going forward.
      We also know that one topic is burning hotter than the rest. We want you to know that we are having the same conversations about items and stats that you are having—whether on the official discussion threads or external sites, we read it all! Getting this right is at the top of our minds, and in the coming weeks our lead systems designer David Kim will provide a few clarifications, share some of his thoughts, and address some of your open questions. We hope you check it out and let us know what you think.
      Once again, on behalf of the entire team, from the bottom of our hearts we want to thank you all for a fantastic and unforgettable BlizzCon 2019.
      Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!
      Luis Barriga,
      Game Director, Diablo IV
       

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