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Lilith's Summoner Is Rathma Confirmed

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There's been a lot of discussion as to who exactly the shapeshifting pale bald man that manipulated the treasure hunters to summon Lilith was, with many people saying it was Rathma, and others vehemently claiming that it couldn't be.

Well, today we seemingly have proof that it is indeed Lilith and Inarius' son, as youtuber TeKo found out by putting the cinematic into some video editing software and finding some old editor comments from Blizzard! 

So, Rathma seems to have had a change of heart since he was last seen, as he was actively trying to prevent Lilith from returning to Sanctuary back in the Sin War (as per the wiki). He was also the first Necromancer and fought for balance together with Trag'Oul, which may indicate we're going to be learning more about those topics, and it's a pretty safe bet the Necromancer class will be returning as well - whether at launch or in a later expansion.

As a side note, let me say how refreshing it is to see a youtube video that doesn't take such a relatively simple discovery and then expands the video to 10-15 minutes by infinite inane talk about nothing just for monetization's sake.

And here's the full  cinematic once more:

 

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I actually thought this would be the Nephalem.

At the end of D3 Tyrael says that the Nephalem became incredibly powerful. He could use the power for good or doom them all.

So I thought the Nephalem made his decision and decided to bring Lilith to this world. Because she was known to be against the eternal conflict between heaven and hell. Just like the Nephalem.

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Perhaps Rathma considers it as an act of bringing balance to Sanctuary. Is he an enemy though? If it backfires on him, then he might end as an ally. But who knows, maybe some Nephalem will end up being corrupted and we will have to put down some of the former heroes. Not a new idea, since we had to do the same in D2 with those from D1.

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Rathma actually opposed Lilith during the Sin War, and since the Priests of Rathma are all about upholding the Balance, I wonder what would be enough of a threat that made him summon her back to Sanctuary?

That makes the whole "Blessed Mother" thing quite more literal, though. Very interesting, indeed!

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4 minutes ago, Draketh said:

Rathma actually opposed Lilith during the Sin War, and since the Priests of Rathma are all about upholding the Balance, I wonder what would be enough of a threat that made him summon her back to Sanctuary?

That makes the whole "Blessed Mother" thing quite more literal, though. Very interesting, indeed!

Also, Lilith might have changed throughout the many many years as well. But she is being billed as the main villain for D4 so yea, it's a bit confusing. Could be one of those "yea she's evil but she's the only one that can stop huge big terrible thing".

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6 minutes ago, Starym said:

Also, Lilith might have changed throughout the many many years as well. But she is being billed as the main villain for D4 so yea, it's a bit confusing. Could be one of those "yea she's evil but she's the only one that can stop huge big terrible thing".

Kerrigan becoming a Xel'naga, Sylvanas and her endgame shrouded in mystery, now Lilith being summoned back by someone who opposed her, most likely due to some greater evil threat...

 

I see a pattern with female villains! Coming soon in Overwatch 2: Widowmaker redemption arc :P

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1 hour ago, Starym said:

As a side note, let me say how refreshing it is to see a youtube video that doesn't take such a relatively simple discovery and then expands the video to 10-15 minutes by infinite inane talk about nothing just for monetization's sake.

+1 ;>

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1 hour ago, Draketh said:

Rathma actually opposed Lilith during the Sin War, and since the Priests of Rathma are all about upholding the Balance, I wonder what would be enough of a threat that made him summon her back to Sanctuary?

That makes the whole "Blessed Mother" thing quite more literal, though. Very interesting, indeed!

I think it's likely that the Balance has been tipped in favor of the angels since Malthael's defeat. All of the demon lords have been forced to retreat into Hell to recuperate. I think it's likely that the angels are plotting to put an end to Hell once and for all, before the demons get a chance to fully recover.

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15 hours ago, Starym said:

As a side note, let me say how refreshing it is to see a youtube video that doesn't take such a relatively simple discovery and then expands the video to 10-15 minutes by infinite inane talk about nothing just for monetization's sake.

Preach! It's insanely difficult to find gaming-related channels that aren't obnoxious in some way, and this in particular is unbearable.

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The lore also indicates that Rathma disliked both of his parents different but domineering methods, so him bringing Lilith back could actually be a response to something initiated by Inarius, who may have used the time passing since the Dark Exile to escape his imprisonment by Mephisto that was arranged by the Angiris Council. I would imagine that by now, Inarius is no longer sane and bent on destroying everything, angel, demon, and nephalem alike.

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18 hours ago, Alkasar said:

I actually thought this would be the Nephalem.

At the end of D3 Tyrael says that the Nephalem became incredibly powerful. He could use the power for good or doom them all.

So I thought the Nephalem made his decision and decided to bring Lilith to this world. Because she was known to be against the eternal conflict between heaven and hell. Just like the Nephalem.

Yes, I thought the same. I really wanna see how this plotpoint will be unfolded in Diablo IV, because the end of RoS left a massive cliffhanger regarding it. I wonder if the Nephalem from D3 will actually make any sort of appearance in D4.

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2 hours ago, Halock said:

Man, someone at Blizzard is going to be kicking themselves.

I don't think Blizzard really thought of this as some super secret thing, since they did make him look EXACTLY as he does in the lore. It's mostly that part of the community that went hard at this not being him.

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4 hours ago, SidonisAntares said:

The lore also indicates that Rathma disliked both of his parents different but domineering methods, so him bringing Lilith back could actually be a response to something initiated by Inarius, who may have used the time passing since the Dark Exile to escape his imprisonment by Mephisto that was arranged by the Angiris Council. I would imagine that by now, Inarius is no longer sane and bent on destroying everything, angel, demon, and nephalem alike.

That's also a possibility. Inarius already seemed like he was having a nervous breakdown after his defeat at the hands of Uldyssian. Combine that with centuries of torture at the hands of Mephisto, and if he's not kill-crazy, then he's completely dead inside.

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It's not confirmed. The literal and entire argument in favor of Rathma that I've seen from anyone, aside from this video, is "he called her Blessed Mother" (anyone from Sanctuary could do that), "I knew it all along it was so obvious", and "he's wise and strong and important so it has to be him it just has to". This whole situation is actually embarrassing and I don't mean for Blizzard.

The video itself a short and basic show of text in a video file that could be the an error, a false flag, or a complete hoax. It was posted by a random Overwatch player and took an entire month to surface during which time no actual dataminer showed with such info from what would've been an easy and obvious target. Finally, there's still no clearly unique and definitive reasoning for him being Rathma; matching one or two details is not proof, especially when there's more details that don't match him and do match someone else - Mendeln. Actual Blizzard confirmation of Rathma would need to be justified by retconning of both lore and characterization.

Edited by Karmakaze

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12 hours ago, Starym said:

I don't think Blizzard really thought of this as some super secret thing, since they did make him look EXACTLY as he does in the lore. It's mostly that part of the community that went hard at this not being him.

Oh, really? I didn't realise there was any description of him before this. 

(Although I'm not a big Diablo person so you could probably say something like 'there are angels in this game, you know' and I'd look at you in surprise)

6 hours ago, Karmakaze said:

It was posted by a random Overwatch player and took an entire month to surface during which time no actual dataminer showed with such info from what would've been an easy and obvious target. 

I mean, I don't have much to argue, but you might be overstretching a little on that point. As far as I'm aware, you can't mine data from a visual clip? I would assume the dataminers were hiding away in their natural habitat somewhere, waiting for a beta invite. And what he asserted is easily verifiable.

And as for obvious, did you know you could download cinematics from the blizzard website? I didn't. 😄 Took me a couple of minutes to find it just now. Nice source for wallpapers, though. 

Edited by Halock

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7 hours ago, Karmakaze said:

It's not confirmed. The literal and entire argument in favor of Rathma that I've seen from anyone, aside from this video, is "he called her Blessed Mother" (anyone from Sanctuary could do that), "I knew it all along it was so obvious", and "he's wise and strong and important so it has to be him it just has to". This whole situation is actually embarrassing and I don't mean for Blizzard.

The video itself a short and basic show of text in a video file that could be the an error, a false flag, or a complete hoax. It was posted by a random Overwatch player and took an entire month to surface during which time no actual dataminer showed with such info from what would've been an easy and obvious target. Finally, there's still no clearly unique and definitive reasoning for him being Rathma; matching one or two details is not proof, especially when there's more details that don't match him and do match someone else - Mendeln. Actual Blizzard confirmation of Rathma would need to be justified by retconning of both lore and characterization.

Clear Blizzard notes in the video aside, why is everyone hell-bent on it NOT being Rathma? I don't understand this at all. Yes he hated Lilith and fought against her coming back before but a GIGANTIC amount of time passed since then and:

a) People change in their short lifespans, let alone in the centuries since that description of Rathma you're all clinging to happened

b) The situation in Sanctuary has DRASTICALLY changed since Rathma's last sighting. There are infinite scenarios where brining Lilith back serves the balance and Rathma's interests/goals.

c) There's magic and possession and mind control and 57 other things that could explain the change in Rathma, we literally know nothing of the circumstances that lead to that cinematic.

d) It's Blizzard writing, so the retcon is actually most likely and they just forgot/ignored/didn't care at all about Rathma's history.

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As I have posted before, it is always possible Rathma changed his views or it's something that's going to bring balance to the world, in his opinion at least. Would have been a classic plot twist, if whole plan backfires and balance is still in danger, so we're going to clean his mess. In this scenario, it's easy to picture Rathma as sort of unwilling ally. Predictable, but nothing unusual for this type of writing. Well, unless it is indeed just some cultist, rather than Rathma himself, his follower perhaps?

With Prime Evils scattered, Angels are now in better position, however Malthael's death probably evens it out a bit.

Edited by Arcling

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Is Rathma more loyal to Trag'Oul or his creators? In the end that may sway him one way or the other over time.

I just pray for no cackling mustache twirling and hope for some believable motivations from the character cast.

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6 hours ago, TyZone said:

Is Rathma more loyal to Trag'Oul or his creators? In the end that may sway him one way or the other over time.

I just pray for no cackling mustache twirling and hope for some believable motivations from the character cast.

I think Trag'Oul was more like an ally to him. Writers have a lot of freedom here, they can just go anywhere with this, considering how little we know about him.

Agree about villains, hopefully no one will act like Azmodan. I still hate that Deckard was killed by some rather minor witch character with quite silly design, just no more of this. Not to mention things like Belial's obvious deception.

 

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On 12/1/2019 at 11:44 PM, Alkasar said:

I actually thought this would be the Nephalem.

At the end of D3 Tyrael says that the Nephalem became incredibly powerful. He could use the power for good or doom them all.

So I thought the Nephalem made his decision and decided to bring Lilith to this world. Because she was known to be against the eternal conflict between heaven and hell. Just like the Nephalem.

Umh, isn't Ratma the first Nephalem? A Nephalem is the mix of angel and demon, he is the firstborn of those, so...

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Nobody's hellbent that it's not Rathma. Most of the community is, and was from the start, hellbent that it *is*. As far as I've seen I'm unfortunately in a very small minority. My stance is only that nothing so far, including this video, is valid proof.

As for my comment about real dataminers, consider my use of the term loose if necessary. And whether *I* thought of doing it is irrelevant, because I'm not one of them.

And again, whether Blizzard confirms it now (which they do still need to) or not, part of the embarrassment of the situation is that a certain somebody got his sights on the video almost immediately after it was put up and proceeded to immediately make his own - not just covering but supporting it. It got out of control in its infancy - I was there early as well, and it was fast.

Edited by Karmakaze

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6 hours ago, Znifler said:

Umh, isn't Ratma the first Nephalem? A Nephalem is the mix of angel and demon, he is the firstborn of those, so...

Yes he is 😄 But I meant the player character, not any Nephalem.

Maybe they tie the D3 ending in somehow. Even if the Player Character from D3 is just represented by a grave.

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On 12/2/2019 at 6:48 PM, Karmakaze said:

It's not confirmed. The literal and entire argument in favor of Rathma that I've seen from anyone, aside from this video, is "he called her Blessed Mother" (anyone from Sanctuary could do that), "I knew it all along it was so obvious", and "he's wise and strong and important so it has to be him it just has to". This whole situation is actually embarrassing and I don't mean for Blizzard.

The video itself a short and basic show of text in a video file that could be the an error, a false flag, or a complete hoax. It was posted by a random Overwatch player and took an entire month to surface during which time no actual dataminer showed with such info from what would've been an easy and obvious target. Finally, there's still no clearly unique and definitive reasoning for him being Rathma; matching one or two details is not proof, especially when there's more details that don't match him and do match someone else - Mendeln. Actual Blizzard confirmation of Rathma would need to be justified by retconning of both lore and characterization.

The most likely answer is usually the simplest, and in this case the simplest answer is that a video that started out as an internal video was not properly scrubbed before public release. There certainly are other reasons that it could be, but as the complexity grows so does the unlikeliness.

I'm more intrigued as to why you think it would be Mendeln though, given that he was not an immortal born nephalem like Rathma, rather an awakened nephalem from Lilith's altering of the Worldstone precluding the events of the Sin War. Presumably he should have died of old age, and steps to circumvent that would be a betrayal of the Balance. 

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I'm not sure we know enough about later-gen or reawakened Nephalem, or about "The Balance", to really say those things. And, otherwise, Mendeln has no less actual explanation for being there and doing that than Rathma does (if anything, as I suggested I think, he has more).

I'm gonna admit that I personally would prefer it to be Mendeln, but I genuinely think we haven't proven anything.

Edited by Karmakaze

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      Items and Progression
      One of the things that was very useful about our two-day playtest was that we could get better feedback on progression as there was a sense of permanence. Gear and skill choices you make on day one have an impact on day two (though some people chose to roll alts as we had multiple classes to test). A friend of mine used to say that Diablo is the game that you keep playing inside your head and Diablo IV is no different. In addition to the official play time allotted to the team during the playtest, I could feel the game lingering in my mind, thinking about the items that could possibly drop for my build, and talents I could finally unlock to get me those key skill interactions.
      You might have already read the developer blog by David Kim shortly after last BlizzCon. In it, he describes new affixes and itemization philosophies. We’ll have a beefier update on items later in the year, but in the meantime, here are some items that dropped during the playtest to whet your appetite!


      Various items from the playtest utilizing the new attribute system. Note that the item icons are not final art
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      Other Thoughts
      The overall feedback from the team was that even at these early stages, Diablo IV is very fun to play. The classes especially are going down a promising path that we’re excited about. We’re taking cues from what makes the Barbarian’s Arsenal system or the Druid’s shapeshifting feel special and looking for ways to apply similar innovations to all classes (more on this in a future update).
      The playtest was also a really good way to put our tech through its paces. Since we played at home, we got to test the game on a lot of different setups—from graphics cards, to screen aspect ratios, to network speeds. We also had the opportunity to exercise our client-server technology, including deploying builds with fixes to bugs during the playtest.
      Of course, we still have a lot of work ahead of us and to be clear, we are not at an Alpha or Beta stage yet. We don’t typically discuss our early milestones publicly during the course of development, but we think it’s especially important to continue to share our progress during a year without a BlizzCon. Also, this was an important milestone for the team as we feel it corroborated that we have all the key ingredients for a great Diablo IV (of course, we’ll continue to seek feedback and iterate as we drive to completion).
      We hope you’ve enjoyed this update and, as always, we welcome you to share your thoughts on the platform of your choice—whether it’s our own forums, other sites, or social media, we read and appreciate your comments and feedback. We were happy to see lots of great discussion after our last blog (which seeded a bunch of conversations on our end as well).
      We are also excited to see the range of topics you want to hear about. Based on your response so far, we think talent trees are by far what you’re the most eager to discuss, so we’ll make sure to queue that up for our very next blog. Items continue to be a popular topic and there was also a lot of interest in music. We are shooting to have more updates around those topics later in the year. Let us know how that sounds.
      Thank you for taking the time to read this update. We can’t wait to share more of Sanctuary with you!
       

      Development is well underway outside the Dry Steppes. More of Sanctuary awaits in coming updates!
       
      -Luis Barriga-
      Game Director, Diablo IV Team
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      Have a question, comment, or feedback about the information we shared today? Join the conversation here on our General Forum. We can’t wait to hear from you!
      The Q2 Diablo 4 update is here!
    • By Starym
      We have some news on the second Diablo 4 quarterly update, in the form of a very short reply from Community Manager Lead PezRadar, confirming that it's still planned for this month, with a note that things can change. But we do now know it's at least written (in some form), so that's something. You can check out the previous quarterly update from back in February here, which focuses on the UI, controllers and co-op and the Cannibal monster family.
      We also recently took a look at whether D4's release could be closer than anticipated, a cool Assassin fan concept, a hate/excitement meter on some D4 features from reddit and discussed whether local co-op was in the cards for PC players as well.
      2nd Quarterly Update (source)
      One simple question, is the D4 Q update still on track for this month?
      Yes but will caveat that things can always change. But I have read it/gone through it.

      Related Diablo 4 Articles:
      Rod Ferguson's Diablo 4 Tweets, Art Director Images Diablo 4 Quarterly Update: February 2020 Diablo 4 Beta Signup Clarifications New Head of the Diablo Franchise Is Rod Ferguson of Gears of War Quarterly Updates on Diablo IV in 2020 Updated Version of Everything We Know About Diablo 4 So Far System Design, Part 2 (Official) Lilith's Summoner Is Rathma Confirmed Diablo 4 Will Be "Like the First Chapter of a Book", Diablo May Not Even Show Up System Design in Diablo 4, Part 1 (Official) A Letter from the Diablo 4 Game Director Leaks Before the Diablo 4 Announcement: Amazon, Paladin and Release Date? Diablo 4 Will Feature Cosmetic Microtransactions Cross-Play Is a Goal for Diablo 4, Blizzard "Very Excited" About It
    • By Starym
      Blizzard's Diablo 4 release timeline has never been outright stated, and the most accurate piece of info on the matter we have is from BlizzCon, where we learned it was "not even Blizzard soon", implying quite a few more years of development were to come. However, the demo that was presented at the convention looked very polished, and even if it was a vertical slice, it was quite far along, which has prompted many discussions on the game's potential 2021 or 2022 release date.
      Today we have redditor poundcake_64 discussing the recent additions to the Blizzard CDN (Content Delivery/Distribution Network), which include not only project Fenris that we already talked about, but also many updates to it in recent weeks. This is all speculation, obviously, and there are differing opinions on poundcake's interpretation of the facts, but we're going to summarize his conclusions anyway, and you can check out the different opinions on the matter in the reddit thread.
      The main claim here is that Diablo 4 is much further along than most of us assumed, with a possible release in 2021. The reasoning given is based on the authors 20 years of experience on the IT field and the patterns of update patches and their contents on the Fenris/Diablo 4 CDN. The first argument is a comparison of the Diablo 3 builds and the fact that the current D4 build already has 142% more versions than the original D3 release build. The second is that Blizzard are already adding things like RGB product integration testing with Corsair and a Vivox SDK (a voice and chat commonly used for video games, like Overwatch), which would be somewhat strange if the game was at an early stage of development. He also reveals the current version on the CDN is playable and is possibly being used by Corsair and co. to test their product integration. He also found out the game is currently 30 GB large, which would be a lot for something not that far along. Finally, he claims that Rod Ferguson was actually brought in to push the project over the (near) finish line, and that Activision are pushing hard for releases, especially knowing Blizzard's usual slow/procrastinating nature of development. Read the full details of poundcake's arguments at the bottom of the article, as he goes into far more detail and is certainly more convincing than this summary.
      My personal thoughts on all this are mixed, as the game build versions could mean anything, as the way Blizzard mark or update them could have changed many times since Diablo 3. The Corsair and Vivox integration, on the other hand, could go either way, but to me it does sound like the game is a significant way along, and this news is actually quite positive for those of us (aka all) that want the game to release as soon as humanly possible (while still being a quality product). Rod Ferguson's addition could be both a good and bad sign for the game's previous development (and I think it's definitely a good sign for its future development, having played most of the Gears games - (regardless of what you think of the games themselves, they're very efficiently made and solid quality products), as he could have been brought in to finish the game quicker/at the finish line or because there was trouble in leadership in the previous regime. Unfortunately I'd say the latter is more likely, as we know/heard solid rumors that another version of Diablo 4 was already scrapped and the team lead left the company, so it wouldn't be that hard to believe the current version of D4 also had leadership issues (especially with the rather uninspired "what do you think we should do" presentation of the game at BlizzCon).
      Having said all that this particular post does give me a lot of hope, as I was completely shocked to see a finished demo of the game at BlizzCon already, and any evidence that the game is much further along that we thought, no matter how flimsy it might be, is something I'm going to be inclined to believe. With the quarterly updates for 2020 we can be sure the game won't be coming early in 2021, as the marketing push needs some time to play itself out, but if these are just the preamble and the real push starts in early 2021, a release in the same year could be possible. The "not even Blizzard soon" comment was somewhat conspicuous, especially considering Activision's constant pushing to get more frequent game releases out, so it might have been a bit of a cover, so they can pull out a huge reveal at this year's BlizzCon about the release date next year. The current pandemic may have thrown off all of these calculations, of course, but I have to say I'm more optimistic now and significantly more hyped.
       
      What do you think about all this? Just random reading into things that we want to have happen, or is there something to it? When do you think we'll see Diablo 4 released?
      Source.
    • By Starym
      Some news on the Diablo 4... well news, as the official twitter has commented that the second quarterly update is being "aimed" at the end of June! In   the February update we heard and saw a lot about the UI and the Cannibal monster family, and got the great news that the game would be playable on controller on PC, with detailed explanations and images, so hopefully we get another great update in June as well. We also learned that the first encrypted build for Diablo 4 may have made its way to the Blizzard CDN earlier today, so check that story out as well.
       

      Related Diablo 4 Articles:
      Diablo 4 Beta Signup Clarifications Diablo 4 GamesRadar Hands On - Death Kits, Difficulty and More Diablo 4 Vs. 3 Vs. 2 Graphics and Art Style Comparisons Quarterly Updates on Diablo IV in 2020 Updated Version of Everything We Know About Diablo 4 So Far System Design, Part 2 (Official) Lilith's Summoner Is Rathma Confirmed Diablo 4 Will Be "Like the First Chapter of a Book", Diablo May Not Even Show Up System Design in Diablo 4, Part 1 (Official) A Letter from the Diablo 4 Game Director Leaks Before the Diablo 4 Announcement: Amazon, Paladin and Release Date? New Gameplay Videos Without Commentary Diablo 4 Will Feature Cosmetic Microtransactions Cross-Play Is a Goal for Diablo 4, Blizzard "Very Excited" About It Visible Open World Players, Skill Cap at 15 and More from Venture Beat Diablo 4 Interview All the Item Affixes from the Diablo 4 BlizzCon Demo All Barbarian, Sorceress and Druid Skills and Talents
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