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Lilith's Summoner Is Rathma Confirmed

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There's been a lot of discussion as to who exactly the shapeshifting pale bald man that manipulated the treasure hunters to summon Lilith was, with many people saying it was Rathma, and others vehemently claiming that it couldn't be.

Well, today we seemingly have proof that it is indeed Lilith and Inarius' son, as youtuber TeKo found out by putting the cinematic into some video editing software and finding some old editor comments from Blizzard! 

So, Rathma seems to have had a change of heart since he was last seen, as he was actively trying to prevent Lilith from returning to Sanctuary back in the Sin War (as per the wiki). He was also the first Necromancer and fought for balance together with Trag'Oul, which may indicate we're going to be learning more about those topics, and it's a pretty safe bet the Necromancer class will be returning as well - whether at launch or in a later expansion.

As a side note, let me say how refreshing it is to see a youtube video that doesn't take such a relatively simple discovery and then expands the video to 10-15 minutes by infinite inane talk about nothing just for monetization's sake.

And here's the full  cinematic once more:

 

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I actually thought this would be the Nephalem.

At the end of D3 Tyrael says that the Nephalem became incredibly powerful. He could use the power for good or doom them all.

So I thought the Nephalem made his decision and decided to bring Lilith to this world. Because she was known to be against the eternal conflict between heaven and hell. Just like the Nephalem.

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Perhaps Rathma considers it as an act of bringing balance to Sanctuary. Is he an enemy though? If it backfires on him, then he might end as an ally. But who knows, maybe some Nephalem will end up being corrupted and we will have to put down some of the former heroes. Not a new idea, since we had to do the same in D2 with those from D1.

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Rathma actually opposed Lilith during the Sin War, and since the Priests of Rathma are all about upholding the Balance, I wonder what would be enough of a threat that made him summon her back to Sanctuary?

That makes the whole "Blessed Mother" thing quite more literal, though. Very interesting, indeed!

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4 minutes ago, Draketh said:

Rathma actually opposed Lilith during the Sin War, and since the Priests of Rathma are all about upholding the Balance, I wonder what would be enough of a threat that made him summon her back to Sanctuary?

That makes the whole "Blessed Mother" thing quite more literal, though. Very interesting, indeed!

Also, Lilith might have changed throughout the many many years as well. But she is being billed as the main villain for D4 so yea, it's a bit confusing. Could be one of those "yea she's evil but she's the only one that can stop huge big terrible thing".

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6 minutes ago, Starym said:

Also, Lilith might have changed throughout the many many years as well. But she is being billed as the main villain for D4 so yea, it's a bit confusing. Could be one of those "yea she's evil but she's the only one that can stop huge big terrible thing".

Kerrigan becoming a Xel'naga, Sylvanas and her endgame shrouded in mystery, now Lilith being summoned back by someone who opposed her, most likely due to some greater evil threat...

 

I see a pattern with female villains! Coming soon in Overwatch 2: Widowmaker redemption arc :P

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1 hour ago, Starym said:

As a side note, let me say how refreshing it is to see a youtube video that doesn't take such a relatively simple discovery and then expands the video to 10-15 minutes by infinite inane talk about nothing just for monetization's sake.

+1 ;>

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1 hour ago, Draketh said:

Rathma actually opposed Lilith during the Sin War, and since the Priests of Rathma are all about upholding the Balance, I wonder what would be enough of a threat that made him summon her back to Sanctuary?

That makes the whole "Blessed Mother" thing quite more literal, though. Very interesting, indeed!

I think it's likely that the Balance has been tipped in favor of the angels since Malthael's defeat. All of the demon lords have been forced to retreat into Hell to recuperate. I think it's likely that the angels are plotting to put an end to Hell once and for all, before the demons get a chance to fully recover.

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15 hours ago, Starym said:

As a side note, let me say how refreshing it is to see a youtube video that doesn't take such a relatively simple discovery and then expands the video to 10-15 minutes by infinite inane talk about nothing just for monetization's sake.

Preach! It's insanely difficult to find gaming-related channels that aren't obnoxious in some way, and this in particular is unbearable.

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The lore also indicates that Rathma disliked both of his parents different but domineering methods, so him bringing Lilith back could actually be a response to something initiated by Inarius, who may have used the time passing since the Dark Exile to escape his imprisonment by Mephisto that was arranged by the Angiris Council. I would imagine that by now, Inarius is no longer sane and bent on destroying everything, angel, demon, and nephalem alike.

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18 hours ago, Alkasar said:

I actually thought this would be the Nephalem.

At the end of D3 Tyrael says that the Nephalem became incredibly powerful. He could use the power for good or doom them all.

So I thought the Nephalem made his decision and decided to bring Lilith to this world. Because she was known to be against the eternal conflict between heaven and hell. Just like the Nephalem.

Yes, I thought the same. I really wanna see how this plotpoint will be unfolded in Diablo IV, because the end of RoS left a massive cliffhanger regarding it. I wonder if the Nephalem from D3 will actually make any sort of appearance in D4.

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2 hours ago, Halock said:

Man, someone at Blizzard is going to be kicking themselves.

I don't think Blizzard really thought of this as some super secret thing, since they did make him look EXACTLY as he does in the lore. It's mostly that part of the community that went hard at this not being him.

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4 hours ago, SidonisAntares said:

The lore also indicates that Rathma disliked both of his parents different but domineering methods, so him bringing Lilith back could actually be a response to something initiated by Inarius, who may have used the time passing since the Dark Exile to escape his imprisonment by Mephisto that was arranged by the Angiris Council. I would imagine that by now, Inarius is no longer sane and bent on destroying everything, angel, demon, and nephalem alike.

That's also a possibility. Inarius already seemed like he was having a nervous breakdown after his defeat at the hands of Uldyssian. Combine that with centuries of torture at the hands of Mephisto, and if he's not kill-crazy, then he's completely dead inside.

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It's not confirmed. The literal and entire argument in favor of Rathma that I've seen from anyone, aside from this video, is "he called her Blessed Mother" (anyone from Sanctuary could do that), "I knew it all along it was so obvious", and "he's wise and strong and important so it has to be him it just has to". This whole situation is actually embarrassing and I don't mean for Blizzard.

The video itself a short and basic show of text in a video file that could be the an error, a false flag, or a complete hoax. It was posted by a random Overwatch player and took an entire month to surface during which time no actual dataminer showed with such info from what would've been an easy and obvious target. Finally, there's still no clearly unique and definitive reasoning for him being Rathma; matching one or two details is not proof, especially when there's more details that don't match him and do match someone else - Mendeln. Actual Blizzard confirmation of Rathma would need to be justified by retconning of both lore and characterization.

Edited by Karmakaze

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12 hours ago, Starym said:

I don't think Blizzard really thought of this as some super secret thing, since they did make him look EXACTLY as he does in the lore. It's mostly that part of the community that went hard at this not being him.

Oh, really? I didn't realise there was any description of him before this. 

(Although I'm not a big Diablo person so you could probably say something like 'there are angels in this game, you know' and I'd look at you in surprise)

6 hours ago, Karmakaze said:

It was posted by a random Overwatch player and took an entire month to surface during which time no actual dataminer showed with such info from what would've been an easy and obvious target. 

I mean, I don't have much to argue, but you might be overstretching a little on that point. As far as I'm aware, you can't mine data from a visual clip? I would assume the dataminers were hiding away in their natural habitat somewhere, waiting for a beta invite. And what he asserted is easily verifiable.

And as for obvious, did you know you could download cinematics from the blizzard website? I didn't. ? Took me a couple of minutes to find it just now. Nice source for wallpapers, though. 

Edited by Halock

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7 hours ago, Karmakaze said:

It's not confirmed. The literal and entire argument in favor of Rathma that I've seen from anyone, aside from this video, is "he called her Blessed Mother" (anyone from Sanctuary could do that), "I knew it all along it was so obvious", and "he's wise and strong and important so it has to be him it just has to". This whole situation is actually embarrassing and I don't mean for Blizzard.

The video itself a short and basic show of text in a video file that could be the an error, a false flag, or a complete hoax. It was posted by a random Overwatch player and took an entire month to surface during which time no actual dataminer showed with such info from what would've been an easy and obvious target. Finally, there's still no clearly unique and definitive reasoning for him being Rathma; matching one or two details is not proof, especially when there's more details that don't match him and do match someone else - Mendeln. Actual Blizzard confirmation of Rathma would need to be justified by retconning of both lore and characterization.

Clear Blizzard notes in the video aside, why is everyone hell-bent on it NOT being Rathma? I don't understand this at all. Yes he hated Lilith and fought against her coming back before but a GIGANTIC amount of time passed since then and:

a) People change in their short lifespans, let alone in the centuries since that description of Rathma you're all clinging to happened

b) The situation in Sanctuary has DRASTICALLY changed since Rathma's last sighting. There are infinite scenarios where brining Lilith back serves the balance and Rathma's interests/goals.

c) There's magic and possession and mind control and 57 other things that could explain the change in Rathma, we literally know nothing of the circumstances that lead to that cinematic.

d) It's Blizzard writing, so the retcon is actually most likely and they just forgot/ignored/didn't care at all about Rathma's history.

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As I have posted before, it is always possible Rathma changed his views or it's something that's going to bring balance to the world, in his opinion at least. Would have been a classic plot twist, if whole plan backfires and balance is still in danger, so we're going to clean his mess. In this scenario, it's easy to picture Rathma as sort of unwilling ally. Predictable, but nothing unusual for this type of writing. Well, unless it is indeed just some cultist, rather than Rathma himself, his follower perhaps?

With Prime Evils scattered, Angels are now in better position, however Malthael's death probably evens it out a bit.

Edited by Arcling

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Is Rathma more loyal to Trag'Oul or his creators? In the end that may sway him one way or the other over time.

I just pray for no cackling mustache twirling and hope for some believable motivations from the character cast.

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6 hours ago, TyZone said:

Is Rathma more loyal to Trag'Oul or his creators? In the end that may sway him one way or the other over time.

I just pray for no cackling mustache twirling and hope for some believable motivations from the character cast.

I think Trag'Oul was more like an ally to him. Writers have a lot of freedom here, they can just go anywhere with this, considering how little we know about him.

Agree about villains, hopefully no one will act like Azmodan. I still hate that Deckard was killed by some rather minor witch character with quite silly design, just no more of this. Not to mention things like Belial's obvious deception.

 

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On 12/1/2019 at 11:44 PM, Alkasar said:

I actually thought this would be the Nephalem.

At the end of D3 Tyrael says that the Nephalem became incredibly powerful. He could use the power for good or doom them all.

So I thought the Nephalem made his decision and decided to bring Lilith to this world. Because she was known to be against the eternal conflict between heaven and hell. Just like the Nephalem.

Umh, isn't Ratma the first Nephalem? A Nephalem is the mix of angel and demon, he is the firstborn of those, so...

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Nobody's hellbent that it's not Rathma. Most of the community is, and was from the start, hellbent that it *is*. As far as I've seen I'm unfortunately in a very small minority. My stance is only that nothing so far, including this video, is valid proof.

As for my comment about real dataminers, consider my use of the term loose if necessary. And whether *I* thought of doing it is irrelevant, because I'm not one of them.

And again, whether Blizzard confirms it now (which they do still need to) or not, part of the embarrassment of the situation is that a certain somebody got his sights on the video almost immediately after it was put up and proceeded to immediately make his own - not just covering but supporting it. It got out of control in its infancy - I was there early as well, and it was fast.

Edited by Karmakaze

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6 hours ago, Znifler said:

Umh, isn't Ratma the first Nephalem? A Nephalem is the mix of angel and demon, he is the firstborn of those, so...

Yes he is ? But I meant the player character, not any Nephalem.

Maybe they tie the D3 ending in somehow. Even if the Player Character from D3 is just represented by a grave.

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On 12/2/2019 at 6:48 PM, Karmakaze said:

It's not confirmed. The literal and entire argument in favor of Rathma that I've seen from anyone, aside from this video, is "he called her Blessed Mother" (anyone from Sanctuary could do that), "I knew it all along it was so obvious", and "he's wise and strong and important so it has to be him it just has to". This whole situation is actually embarrassing and I don't mean for Blizzard.

The video itself a short and basic show of text in a video file that could be the an error, a false flag, or a complete hoax. It was posted by a random Overwatch player and took an entire month to surface during which time no actual dataminer showed with such info from what would've been an easy and obvious target. Finally, there's still no clearly unique and definitive reasoning for him being Rathma; matching one or two details is not proof, especially when there's more details that don't match him and do match someone else - Mendeln. Actual Blizzard confirmation of Rathma would need to be justified by retconning of both lore and characterization.

The most likely answer is usually the simplest, and in this case the simplest answer is that a video that started out as an internal video was not properly scrubbed before public release. There certainly are other reasons that it could be, but as the complexity grows so does the unlikeliness.

I'm more intrigued as to why you think it would be Mendeln though, given that he was not an immortal born nephalem like Rathma, rather an awakened nephalem from Lilith's altering of the Worldstone precluding the events of the Sin War. Presumably he should have died of old age, and steps to circumvent that would be a betrayal of the Balance. 

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I'm not sure we know enough about later-gen or reawakened Nephalem, or about "The Balance", to really say those things. And, otherwise, Mendeln has no less actual explanation for being there and doing that than Rathma does (if anything, as I suggested I think, he has more).

I'm gonna admit that I personally would prefer it to be Mendeln, but I genuinely think we haven't proven anything.

Edited by Karmakaze

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      Table of Contents
      Seasons New Content Refreshing the Meta Improving the Game Live Events Season Journey Season Pass The Shop Closing Thoughts Seasons
      Hello, Heroes of Sanctuary! My name is Joe Piepiora, the associate game director responsible for game systems and our live service. Today I finally get to talk about our high-level plans for Diablo IV’s seasonal content updates. We are in the exciting position of delivering the high-quality, quarterly releases Diablo IV deserves.
      As our game director Joe Shely noted earlier, we are pursuing a seasonal reset structure for our live game—Diablo is a game about choice and possibility! We feel it is at its best when you get a clean slate to start from in a season, picking a class, customizing your build, and chasing down items that support it along the way. This affords us several advantages and chief among them is that we can really shake the box of Diablo IV with each season, creating unique experiences with each of our quarterly releases.
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      New Content

      We think it is important that players see that the game is changing in meaningful ways. Each season will be released with a fresh new gameplay feature and questline that introduces new challenges, mysteries, and possibilities into the level-up experience. This is something players should begin to experience before the end of their first hour of play. One of the benefits of our seasonal direction is that it enables fun, new ways to play throughout your character’s progression.
      Each Season's new questline will reveal more of the world of Sanctuary and your character’s place in it. Here, we get an opportunity to introduce new characters or revisit old ones while exploring the lore and content of the season.
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      Refreshing the Meta

      Diablo IV is a vast game—we want to ensure that we are keeping existing content and features in a place where they remain fun and challenging to participate in. To that end, we will always be evaluating the state of the game to regularly revitalize older stomping grounds.
      One clear example here is looking at the relative balance between classes, builds, and powers. Diablo is a game that is about creating exciting, overpowered builds, and while we don’t want to balance the fun out of the experience, we don’t want to create situations in which imprecise tuning squash creativity.
      We will also be constantly adding new legendary and unique items, paragon boards, glyphs, and more that will continually refresh the meta and create new build opportunities.
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      Improving the Game
      With each season we’ll be looking into ways to simply improve the player experience. As a live product, we intend to hold Diablo IV to an exceedingly high standard. We are here to build a live game that we can be proud of, and the best way to do that is by engaging our players directly.
      Based on feedback that we receive, the team will identify quality-of-life features and polish work that can be done to improve the overall game experience and invite the community to vote upon their priority. While we cannot always flip a switch to tackle something immediately, you can rest assured that we will be active in improving the quality of the game experience for years to come.
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      Live Events
      Sanctuary is a living world filled with people, creatures, and factions striving to meet their own ends. Attentive players should be on the lookout for new live events that will crop up each season. An example of a live event might be the warning of an impending invasion of the Drowned, which may last a weekend, or the arrival of a strange peddler amidst the crags of the Dry Steppes. These events provide gateways to new adventures and unique rewards.
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      Season Journey
      Alongside our major season releases, we see the return of the Season Journey. Players are pushed to explore Sanctuary anew, earning limited-time rewards with each chapter of the Season Journey that is completed. Completing the Season Journey is quite a feat, with the final step demanding the character overcome an extremely difficult encounter with an especially deadly foe. With future Season Journeys, we are regularly adding pinnacle-level difficulty challenges for players to complete, proving their worth and earning unique cosmetic rewards besides.
      Like Diablo III, the Season Journey is free for all players. Completing Season Journey objectives also grants progress toward the Season Pass, a new feature with a battle pass-style progression that advances alongside the Season Journey, enabling players to earn even more rewards just by playing. The Season Pass has both free rewards (cosmetics, premium currency, and gameplay boosts) and paid rewards (cosmetics and premium currency only).
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      Season Pass
      Hey everyone, I’m Kegan Clark, director of product for Diablo IV here to talk about our approach to live service monetization in Diablo IV. As we’ve discussed previously, Diablo IV will be a full-price game with a Cosmetics Shop and Season Pass—none of which provide any pay-for-power options. Our goal in designing our in-game purchases is that we want to create beautiful things which add value to players’ experience of the game.
      The scale of Diablo IV Seasons is much more ambitious than what we've done in the past on Diablo III, with a large development team dedicated to Seasons after launch. Diablo IV will be supported by an army of developers for years to come. With all the exciting plans we have for Seasons, we want them to be enjoyed by everyone, regardless of whether they buy anything from the shop. I’m grateful for the opportunity to finally share more with the community about our live service model.
      Seasons will add all-new gameplay, quests, challenges, meta changes, and quality-of-life improvements. The Season Pass recognizes players’ dedication, with greater rewards unlocking as you play more throughout the Season. There will be a single track of rewards with Free Tiers that are unlocked just by playing the game and leveling, and Premium Tiers which provide no in-game power or advantage over other players. The Free Tiers of the pass will provide gameplay boosts to all players—things which make the journey of leveling up a fresh seasonal character faster and more streamlined. In contrast, the Premium Tier rewards are focused on aesthetics, providing a huge value in the form of cosmetics and Premium Currency. Many of the rewards embody the seasonal theme, helping players show off their participation in that Season.
      Let’s talk more about what players can expect:
      The Season Pass has Free Tiers and Premium Tiers. Throughout the pass players can earn a variety of rewards for free, just by playing. At any point during the Season, players can purchase the Premium Pass to unlock the ability to earn Premium rewards tiers containing seasonally themed Cosmetics and Premium Currency.
      The Season Pass awards cosmetics. Like the Shop, these don’t affect gameplay. Additionally, certain cosmetic types are exclusive to the Season Pass.
      The Season Pass awards Premium Currency. Players can spend this currency on cosmetics offered in the shop.
      The Season Pass awards free Season Boosts. Boosts accelerate players’ progress for the duration of the Season. For example, a Season Boost might accelerate XP earned to make leveling multiple characters within a season faster. Because they affect gameplay, Season Boosts are free rewards for all players. We want to be clear that players can’t unlock Season Boosts more quickly through purchases--there is no way to unlock more boosts, or boosts at a faster pace, by spending money.
      Players can purchase Tiers-but they won’t speed up getting Season Boosts. Players can’t upgrade Season Boosts just by purchasing Tiers, because they’ll also have to earn level milestones to apply them. All other Tier rewards can be unlocked instantly by purchasing Tiers. In other words, there’s no way to shortcut getting Season Boosts by buying Tiers; they must be earned.
      The Season Journey accelerates Season Pass progression. While any play style can progress through the Season Pass, min-maxers can focus on Season Journey objectives to advance more quickly.
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      The Shop
      The way we approached designing the Shop and the cosmetics within it was by thinking about the experience we want players to have. We want buying things to feel good--before, during, and after purchase. So, if players choose to buy something, it should be because they want to, not because they feel like they have to. It should also be clear to players exactly what they are getting before they choose to buy, with no unpleasant surprises.
      The Shop’s cosmetics build on top of the foundation of a huge variety of transmogs from weapons and armors players will find in-game. It’s also important to us that the Shop is grounded within Diablo’s world, so our cosmetics are holistic fantasies, the individual components of which can be mixed and matched with transmogs from armors acquired in-game for endless customization options.
      A screen capture of the Shop’s internal beta.
      Let’s talk more about what players can expect:
      The Shop sells cosmetics for Premium Currency. Cosmetics give players even more options to customize the visual appearance of their characters. Nothing offered in the Shop grants a direct or indirect gameplay advantage. So, while many of these may look like powerful pieces of gear, they have no in-game stats.
      A screen capture of the Shop’s internal beta.
      The Shop is optional. Players can experience all core and seasonal gameplay features without spending money. Our goal is for players to enjoy going to the Shop, buy something when it catches their fancy, and walk away happy with what they bought.
      The Shop is transparent. It’s important that players know exactly what to expect before making a purchase. We’ve built preview functionality that enables players to closely examine every detail of the cosmetic on their own characters before deciding to make a purchase.
      A screen capture of the Shop’s internal beta.
      The best-looking cosmetics aren’t exclusive to the Shop. Diablo IV will ship with hundreds of transmogs unlockable from drops in-game, including dozens of armor sets of the highest visual quality. There are incredible pieces—Unique and Legendary quality items—for players to find without ever going to the Shop. The Shop offers more diversity of choices, not systematically better choices.


      Screen captures of Legendary Armors earned through the game (left) versus Armor Cosmetics in the Shop (right).
      Armor Transmogs in the Shop are usable on all characters of that class. Many of the cosmetics in the Shop are class-specific fantasies, which wouldn’t necessarily make sense visually on other classes. Once you unlock a cosmetic from the Shop for a given class, you can use it on every character of that class on your account. There are special cosmetics exclusive to the Season Pass which celebrate the theme of the Season and look similar across all the classes.
      The most important guiding principle behind the Shop and Season Pass is to create something players love, look forward to, and appreciate being part of the game. Cosmetics in Diablo IV create new ways for players to express themselves and never provide advantages in-game. Players will experience all the fun of Seasons, whether they spend anything or not. We intend to continue our dialog with players about Shop and Season Pass, and we’ll always listen and seek out the community's feedback about it. It is our sincerest belief that we can work together with the community to keep Diablo IV a living, evolving world for many years to come! Thanks for reading, we’ll be sharing more soon!
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      Closing Thoughts
      Wrapping up this Quarterly Update blog, we want players to take comfort in knowing Diablo IV will continue to evolve its offerings post-launch. The introduction of new Seasons, alongside live events, and a returning Season Journey will work in tandem to breathe variety into the game, while also reinforcing its core principle: empowering players to experience Sanctuary as they see fit. We cannot wait for you to explore these systems in the future!
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    • By Staff
      A few days ago, Diablo 4 Beta appeared in the Battle.net Catalog. However, Rod Fergusson dispelled all rumors about the Beta in just one tweet claiming it was just an internal only test.
      We've got some sad news for everyone who expected an early Diablo 4 Beta. Senior Vice President of the Diablo franchise commented on Twitter that the Diablo 4 Beta showing up on Battle.net was intended only for internal testing.
      Placeholder for tweet 1550524852699861000
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