Standard rotation

[positiv2 950]

I decided to move the discussion from Cabalist's Tome Tempo Mage as it was off-topic. If you want to continue with the discussion, please do so here.

Since the first two posts of the discussion were relevant to the topic, I decided not to move them and rather quote them here, and since third post was mine, it is just below these two.

3 hours ago, KingMe said:

7 hours ago, Blainie said:

The rotation most likely won't happen until Spring of 2017, so you'll have a LOT of time to play with those ABs. They're also very strong in this deck.

That's what I was thinking. It started in Spring, it would only make sense (by my logic) to switch it in Spring. You never know with Ben and Company though. 

@BlainieBlizzard seems to have pushed the released so they could release a new expansion in january. I might be wrong, but the release dates seem different enough to make me paranoid (August 2015 for TGT, April 2016 for WotoG).

[Paracel 165]

3 minutes ago, KingMe said:

That's what I was thinking. It started in Spring, it would only make sense (by my logic) to switch it in Spring. You never know with Ben and Company though. 

With their 3+3 / 2 years scheme, they should give us time to play with 2015 "block" up until they begin 2017 "block". Just don't forget there should be one more expansion this year.

Their rotation plan sucks, but that's a story for another time.

[KingMe 289]

Just now, Paracel said:

With their 3+3 / 2 years scheme, they should give us time to play with 2015 "block" up until they begin 2017 "block". Just don't forget there should be one more expansion this year.

Their rotation plan sucks, but that's a story for another time.

They were never too clear about their "Plan" other than saying "the latest 2 years". So do you think as each set comes out now the oldest set drops at the newest's release? 

[Paracel 165]

1 minute ago, KingMe said:

They were never too clear about their "Plan" other than saying "the latest 2 years". So do you think as each set comes out now the oldest set drops at the newest's release? 

It is hardly reasonable that rotation drops at The New Year's Eve. It wouldn't even make a full year since Standard was invented. It is already an issue that later expansions see less play time-wise, so Year of Kraken should be 12 months, it's called a Year after all.

But, "being reasonable" and "being on Heartstone development team" is two different things.

That's why I wrote "should" in italic.

[positiv2 950]

13 minutes ago, Paracel said:

It is hardly reasonable that rotation drops at The New Year's Eve. It wouldn't even make a full year since Standard was invented. It is already an issue that later expansions see less play time-wise, so Year of Kraken should be 12 months, it's called a Year after all.

The first year being shorter seems fine when I think about the following years. When more people start playing HS, they will wonder, why the year starts in april. The next years will be 12 months, which should makes it a year. It could be "3/4 of a year of Kraken", but that just doesn't have the sound. 
It truly is an issue with expansions later in the year seeing less time, but it doesn't bother me since I play wild as well.

[KingMe 289]

5 minutes ago, Paracel said:

It is hardly reasonable that rotation drops at The New Year's Eve. It wouldn't even make a full year since Standard was invented. It is already an issue that later expansions see less play time-wise, so Year of Kraken should be 12 months, it's called a Year after all.

But, "being reasonable" and "being on Heartstone development team" is two different things.

That's why I wrote "should" in italic.

I think something was misunderstood somewhere. My theory behind the set drops would be; Once we enter the "New Year" as each set comes into rotation then the oldest set in rotation would then fall out. I.E; "Year of the Spider" (Example) rolls around and with it comes a new booster set. Once the new Booster set comes into rotation then BrM would fall out of rotation. After that happens everyone plays new rotation cards for "X" amount of time before the second set comes out in "The Year of the Spider" (Example) at which time TGT would fall out of rotation and so on. 

[Valks 2,373]

8 minutes ago, positiv2 said:

The first year being shorter seems fine when I think about the following years. When more people start playing HS, they will wonder, why the year starts in april. The next years will be 12 months, which should makes it a year. It could be "3/4 of a year of Kraken", but that just doesn't have the sound. 

Is there a major tournament that could mark the transition?

[positiv2 950]

2 minutes ago, Blainie said:

Is there a major tournament that could mark the transition?

Winter Championship will take place in march, WC should take place during Blizzcon. It is possible though, that the Winter Championship will take place earlier, which could make it a good tournament to start the year. 

[Paracel 165]

52 minutes ago, KingMe said:

I think something was misunderstood somewhere. My theory behind the set drops would be; Once we enter the "New Year" as each set comes into rotation then the oldest set in rotation would then fall out. I.E; "Year of the Spider" (Example) rolls around and with it comes a new booster set. Once the new Booster set comes into rotation then BrM would fall out of rotation. After that happens everyone plays new rotation cards for "X" amount of time before the second set comes out in "The Year of the Spider" (Example) at which time TGT would fall out of rotation and so on. 

No, they will sadly rotate out at the same time. I heavily advocate "1-in, 1-out" system like you are describing but this is not the case. 

It's just not fair IMO. League is the best expansion we've ever had and we got to play it for like 6 months less than BrM. 1-in, 1-out would create more dynamic metagames and increase the lifespan of each set, which benefits pretty much every party involved. Except for the Icy-Veins who would have to update guides all the time.

1 hour ago, positiv2 said:

The first year being shorter seems fine when I think about the following years. When more people start playing HS, they will wonder, why the year starts in april. The next years will be 12 months, which should makes it a year. It could be "3/4 of a year of Kraken", but that just doesn't have the sound. 

You can place this milestone anywhere you wish. It doesn't have to be related to anything specific because the rotation day is already specific enough, on its own. Your mom and dad didn't exactly choose your birthday, did they? But then it stuck and you (probably) keep celebrating it around that day.

Standard format has a birthday in April. That's it. There is no puzzle for a person who wasn't there when sky fell upon us.

[KingMe 289]

Where does it state that it will be all at once instead of "1 in, 1 out". I don't remember reading anything that stated what their intended plan was other than "the latest 2 years". 

[positiv2 950]

53 minutes ago, Paracel said:

You can place this milestone anywhere you wish. It doesn't have to be related to anything specific because the rotation day is already specific enough, on its own. Your mom and dad didn't exactly choose your birthday, did they? But then it stuck and you (probably) keep celebrating it around that day.

The thing  with birthdays is that almost nobody remembers them. I don't know the birthday of my aunt and don't know the birthday of standard mode. It would be much easier to remember it if it was on the 1st of something, like 1st of January, if the name is "Year of X", and not "Rotation of X". 
Also, no, I don't celebrate my birthday on the actual birthday, which even further shows that birthdays can be moved - no matter if human birthdays or birthdays of game modes.

[KingMe 289]

@positiv2 Good idea, this is why you are in charge. :P  As far as the whole rotation thing goes; has anything actually been posted somewhere about how the entire process is going to happen? As I had stated in a previous comment the only thing I ever remember reading was they were only going to use the last two years worth of sets in Standard. As far as how they go about rotating them, I thought that was still up in the air. 

 

[positiv2 950]

@KingMeA quote directly from the original announcement post

Quote

When we release the first new Expansion each year, every set that wasn’t released in the same year or the year prior will cycle out and no longer be part of the Standard format.

So, we will have one expansion this year, and when the next set is released at the beginning on the year, BrM, TGT and LoE will be rotated out.

[KingMe 289]

4 minutes ago, positiv2 said:

@KingMeA quote directly from the original announcement post

So, we will have one expansion this year, and when the next set is released at the beginning on the year, BrM, TGT and LoE will be rotated out.

Ok I see it now. This was the article I remember reading but I guess I had forgot the exact wording stating that at the beginning of the "New Year" ALL sets fell off. Thanks for clarifying this for me. 

[Aexra 5]

On 16-9-2016 at 8:51 PM, positiv2 said:

@KingMeA quote directly from the original announcement post

So, we will have one expansion this year, and when the next set is released at the beginning on the year, BrM, TGT and LoE will be rotated out.

Huh? When the new year starts only BrM and TGT will rotate out right. Or did BrM and LoE came out in the same year? 

[positiv2 950]

1 hour ago, Aexra said:

Huh? When the new year starts only BrM and TGT will rotate out right. Or did BrM and LoE came out in the same year? 

League of Explorers came on November 13, meaning that it will rotate out with BrM and TGT.

[Valks 2,373]

1 hour ago, positiv2 said:

League of Explorers came on November 13, meaning that it will rotate out with BrM and TGT.

reNOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Paracel 165]

3 hours ago, Blainie said:

reNOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I think it's safe to say our outcry and general heresy of being not ok with the current rotational plan is the fact that League of Explorers is, simply put, the best Hearthstone expansion up to date. 

It has a cool idea behind it, a very "new wave Hearthstone" feel behind it. All those hats and adventures are a mock up of already existing mock up by Sir Harrison Jones, which is totally not serious but incredibly well executed. Compare it to "old wave Hearthstone" - Classic, BrM, Naxx, TGT - that were about converting existing and iconic Warcraft things into cards directly. Surely it felt great but there weren't a lot of exactly new things. League had new things.

It has cool mechanics and cards in it. Discover is the quintessential good random mechanic - random enough to bring variance and average doses of "fun", yet made in such way that total random is not in the 100% of equation, and you actually make a skill-based decision. Legendaries like Brann Bronzebeard and Sir Finley Mrrgglton brought an absolutely new dimension into the game, while being of relatively straightforward, simple-but-smart design. Elise Starseeker was a flavor win bar none, and Reno Jackson is truly a unique card, rivaling only few things in rage-inducement. Commons found their place among staples. Tunnel Trogg fixed Shaman in a way nobody could think of. Ethereal Conjurer broke Arena in a way everyone thought of. Dark Peddler is played in, like, 100% of Warlock decks.

If we compare LoE to the relative straightforwardness (except for Grim Patron and Thaurissan) of BrM and overall faliure of TGT, it's easy to get why we are going to miss League more and why it's sorta unfair to rotate it.

Also a big thing - bigger rotational "blocks" mean less potential for multi-expansions design, so common in Magic: The Gathering. Like, One Night in Karazhan is clearly made with LoE and some BrM in mind, yet their Standard spotlight is rather short. Going slightly back in time, BrM Dragon synergies were good but not consistent enough until the release of TGT where they sorta went on with the theme, and now Dragons are all over the place. But having to print the same things all over and over again takes a lot of design space (not that anybody cares about flavor).

A scenario where two sets are designed to complement each other and to rotate together would create new directions and possibilities for R&D. Whispers of The Old Gods is a good expansion, but its themes - The Old Gods - now feel slightly lackluster once hype is gone and there is no support in other expansions (talking about C'Thun, specifically). Now imagine what's going to happen with Karazhan when we lose spell-heavy support or Dragons to compliment The Spire. Or to Beast Druid with its super trump card from the Menagerie when it loses its previous beasts. 

What I'm trying to say is that printing cards is a big thing and should not be taken lightly. There are definetly flaws that we, fellow users, can cry about as much as we want. Should they be there is not exactly for us to decide.

P.S. Big shoutout to @positiv2 for moving the discussion in to the appropriate flood chamber. We should only spam where it's due.

[Keizoku 185]

4 hours ago, Blainie said:

reNOOOOOOOOOOOOO

See you in Hell, Reno!

[Valks 2,373]

5 hours ago, Keizoku said:

See you in Hell, Reno!

I remember when he first released and I literally made a Mage deck that used Reno, double Duplicate, double Echo, double Ice Block. It was awesome. Most fun I had ever had with Hearthstone at that point.