L0rinda

Druid Nerf Announcement Seemingly Imminent.

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Ben Brode has suggested that there will be an upcoming nerf to Druid.

In a short, but precise Tweet, Game Director Ben Brode says that there will be more information later in the week.

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Although there is always dislike for the top tier decks, the dislike for Druid on social media since the start of  Knights of the Frozen Throne has been up there with the highest ever.

At the recent HCT Summer Playoffs, each of the 77 competitors brought Druid in their lineup. Any Druid nerf will need to be handled carefully however. It seems very likely that if Druid is taken down too far, then Priest will replace it as an overwhelmingly strong deck.

With that in mind it seems likely that Druid will still be left as a powerful class. My own thought is that nerfing Spreading Plague alone might be enough to give Aggro a way to beat Druid again, and stop the dominance.

This would be an unpopular option with some, as Ultimate Infestation is perceived to be the problem card, but I feel that if Aggro can keep Druid in check, then that problem would not leave people feeling powerless to do anything about.

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10 minutes ago, Valhalen said:

I  don't play Hearthstone, but I'm curious. Why is the Druid so hated?

It's hated this expansion because it is the strong class that feels unfair to play against a lot of the time.

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I hope two things: first, that if they nerf druid, they don't leave it unplayable as they did with quest rogue; second, that if they nerf druid, they don't make a pirate meta again.

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2 minutes ago, Synesthesy said:

I hope two things: first, that if they nerf druid, they don't leave it unplayable as they did with quest rogue; second, that if they nerf druid, they don't make a pirate meta again.

Quest rogue isn't the only thing that has gotten nerfed to oblivion, RIP Hunter Class

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52 minutes ago, Valhalen said:

I  don't play Hearthstone, but I'm curious. Why is the Druid so hated?

I'm not sure if you're aware with the basic mechanics of Hearthstone, like getting mana each turn and the way turns work. Depending on that this explanation might either totally confuse you or be understandable:

 

Druids have a "ramp" option, this means they can spend their turn on mana to gain more mana the next turns. They can do this more often than once depending on their current cards and turn. This might mean that by turn 5, you have 5 mana while the druid has 9 or even 10.

 

While that has been "fair" in the past, because the druid skips their entire turn for a more favorable later turn, KFT turns things a bit too painful with catch-up mechanisms. So while the druid loses boardcontrol and is set back on health compared to the opponent, their massive lead in mana and powerful cards can turn things around too fast in KFT. Their late-game cards are extremely high value so ramping up to those cards quick enough can alleviate their early-game disadvantage a bit too fast.

 

So what I think Blizzard is considering nerfing is either the ramp cards themselves (Say, make them cost 1 mana more) or nerf the end-game cards. The latter is a lot more work while the former also affects later expansions and even wild.

 

So that's a rough position blizzard is in. Maybe they'll just nerf one or two late game cards slightly so that it only affects this expansion while making sure priests don't get the upper hand.

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1 hour ago, Valhalen said:

I  don't play Hearthstone, but I'm curious. Why is the Druid so hated?

Jade Golem decks in my experience, not sure how it goes at higher levels though. 

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Yeah, nerf Druid.

I just spent quite a lot of dust to have at least one Tier 1 deck.

If they nerf this now - hey, I just dump a few thousand dust in the next deck.
Maybe they won't nerve this...

Luckily I have an unlimited supply of dust. Oh, wait...

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I am totally ok with nerfing new powerful cards but I really hope they will not mess around with the basic/classic cards.

Balancing is always a hard job, no matter which game. But here they mostly "balance" to keep ppl happy and paying. That means the balancing is not always balanced :D

No idea how often I lost games I thought I have won to Bloodreaver Gul'dan will they nerf it next ? :D

Oh wait, Warlock is still not really strong, leave it ;)

Edited by Caldyrvan

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1 hour ago, WedgeAntilles said:

Yeah, nerf Druid.

I just spent quite a lot of dust to have at least one Tier 1 deck.

If they nerf this now - hey, I just dump a few thousand dust in the next deck.
Maybe they won't nerve this...

Luckily I have an unlimited supply of dust. Oh, wait...

Blizzard is not doing this out of an economic motivation, but it will certainly drive players in a similar situation to you to possibly buy packs with $$$

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If they nerf cards you take back full dust there is no reason to complain for that.

Btw druid need a nerf to the ground treatment since like 9/10 of the people i match play some kind of druid either aggro jade 10 mana cards ... need heavy nerf to stop this druid spam before all other class get completely wiped from the game, right now is just 1 class with a ton of viable decks and some classes with absolutely no deck viable (rogue, warlock)

Moving Innervate to wild will be the best thing they could ever do to fix it once for all, also ultimate need a nerf because right now is 10 mana battlecry: win the game, and is kinda too much for a single card that can be dropped at turn 5 with ease.

Skulking Geist is now a must play in every deck to destroy druid decks a little but is a 6 mana card they have already 10 mana when you drop it so is not even that good if you already lost the game from all the stuff they dropped for free while you wait to drop it and remove idols and 20 hp from his deck, making skulking a 1-3 mana card woulda have really more helpful to stop druid domination

 

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7 minutes ago, Hanz39 said:

If they nerf cards you take back full dust there is no reason to complain for that.

 

If they nerf Jade-Druid that he isn't Tier 1 any longer - do I get my dust for Fandral Staghelmback too?

No?

Well, seems like I could have reasons for complaining...

 

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13 minutes ago, WedgeAntilles said:

If they nerf Jade-Druid that he isn't Tier 1 any longer - do I get my dust for Fandral Staghelmback too?

No?

Well, seems like I could have reasons for complaining...

 

I know your question is rhetoric and made in spite. However, I'd like to clarify to anyone else that nerfing cards does not always yield a return in dust. Of course, decks built around one or two cards that get nerfed will not get their dust returned either, only those nerfed cards have a chance to get your dust returned.

 

And I agree with a few posts above that dabbling and nerfing long-standing cards (Basic/classic etc) is really not a nice thing to happen. But if Blizzard deems it mandatory, it will happen regardless (They'll try to avoid it but if not possible then to hell with it).

 

Buzzard, azure drake, ragnaros, charge minions (or minions that affect charge) for warrior for example, among other nerfs and buffs to classic/basic cards do happen.

 

 

I feel your pain if you have a few decks built around specific cards and then have the entire deck get crushed because you no longer have those cards. Truly an awful feeling :(

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Players always start to complain when a deck/class gets to strong, others when cards get nerfed. Sometimes they complain for good reasons. sometimes not. I agree that druid is a little to strong atm, but a nerf should still be done carefully.

But right now we can just be patient until they reveal what they will do with druid, hopefully it will make more people happy than angry :)

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Doesn't seems Fandral is a Jade card to me, it works with any druid deck and exist way before jade was invented.

I crafted Krul to try Demon deck (make warlock playable Blizz someday we still wait from Reno times) nobody will give me back the dust but I was aware that i was throwing my dust doing so.

Now is clear as sun that druid need a brutal nerf because when you play 10 matches and find 9 druids need a brutal treatment otherwise we keep this mono class meta until a new release and it makes no sense.

If in competitive play 100% of players use druid even Blizzard have to hurry up and fix it before it become a joke with coin toss matches with same decks

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3 hours ago, WedgeAntilles said:

Yeah, nerf Druid.

I just spent quite a lot of dust to have at least one Tier 1 deck.

If they nerf this now - hey, I just dump a few thousand dust in the next deck.
Maybe they won't nerve this...

Luckily I have an unlimited supply of dust. Oh, wait...

They always give the option to disenchant cards for full value when they're changed so you won't lose anything

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39 minutes ago, Mknissan said:

They always give the option to disenchant cards for full value when they're changed so you won't lose anything

Sure I will, since I had to craft several cards especially for the deck.

Cards I would have never crafted if not for Druid-Jade decks.

If (only if) Jade-Druid stops being a Tier 1 deck ALL THESE CARDS I crafted for the deck are useless for me. Not just the specific cards they changed.

 

And Hanz39, I don't know where you got your figures, but all stats I see (be that from my own games, be it from statistics from different websites) show not nearly 90% off all decks being Jade-Druids.

On how many games are the 90% based?

 

And your reference to competitive play (again, based on how many tournaments? 1? Wow, great...) - a vast majority had Pirate Warrior in their deck list. Or - earlier on - Midrange Shaman.

Edit: I just checked the HCT EU SUmmer Playoffs.

Even there isn't a 100% Druid-Play.

Seriously dude, where do you get your numbers from? Out of thin air? Quite hard to discuss if one party just makes up numbers.

 

Maybe Jade-Druid is a little too strong atm, that is a possibility.

But since Tier 1 decks have become horribly expensive it is just not possible for me (F2P Player) to craft several of them - in the hope that one of them won't get nerfed. And if I loose the one I have (after investing a lot of dust) that would realy suck.

Edited by WedgeAntilles

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I agree, with the release of more expansions in a short time it became nearly impossible to keep up with tier 1 decks (except for those playing for so long that they have tons of dust or do not mind to spend hundreds of $ / € per expansion.

I doubt they will nerf druid to the ground (as some demand :D ) and there is no need to do that. Just a bit to bring druid back in line.

And again I have to say I really hope they will not do something like "Move Innervate to Wild". but I have the feeling they will keep nerfing and moving cards to wild from the basic and classic set, so people have to rely more and more on the newest expansions to play standard and therefor make even long time players pay again/more.

Edited by Caldyrvan

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2 hours ago, Caldyrvan said:

And again I have to say I really hope they will not do something like "Move Innervate to Wild".

I think this would cause such an upset from Druid players... I hope they'll consider something a bit more creative and less impactful than move a staple card out of the game.

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I'll be happy with a Spreading Plague nerf. The harder they hit it, the better imo.

Wouldn't mind innervate being changed to refill 2 already existing mana crystals either. This at least stops bullshit like turn 1 flappy bird.

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Expecting them to change UI to 5 mana and claim that it counts as a nerf because it gives you a worse minion off medivh.

Nah, I honestly expect them to just move Innervate to HoF and maybe change plague to 6 mana. This would probably be enough for aggro decks to keep Jade Druid in check, and Aggro Druid to not just blow people up on turn one with broken innervate turns(although there's a chance it will actually be enough to kill the archetype).

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No idea what you all have with Innervate. It was fine in the past and will be. The problem is the synergy with cards of new expansion. Yesterday I had a game against a druid who played 2x Vicious Fledgling on turn 1. I could remove one but the other was my death. Who cares?... that happens not every game, I would rather nerf the stupid Fledgling 

When I think about Spreading Plague I'm not so sure they will nerf exactly this because as opponent you know he can have this card and play around it, If you feed the druid with a ton of small minions it's your fault not the druids' or the fault of a card :)

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8 hours ago, Dustintime said:

I watched disguised toast on his stream last night play 14 druids in a row...

Nuff said

Let's talk about some real numbers, shall we?

I have played 151 games in the last week (I was on vacation and had a lot of time...) with Jade-Druid decks.

Ranked games.

30% of these games were against Druid. The majority of those were Jade-Druid, but not all.

Around 1/4 or 1/3 were Aggro-Druid.

That leads us to less then 1/4 of all games against Jade-Druid.

 

Not quite the 90% or 100% you guys like to make up.

 

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The interesting question is: will Innervate be targeted with some change? There are good arguments for both yes and no. I am more inclined to yes, since they have nerfed vanilla and classic cards in the past (like Force of Nature) or they have removed them from Standard. I think removing Innervate from Standard is a little too extreme. If my memory doesn't fail me, Blizzard had sort of admitted quite a long time ago (when the game was less than a year old) that they see 0 mana cards causing problems in the future. A little after that they made Soulfire and Hunter's Mark cost 1 mana. Will they make Innervate work like The Coin?

I will have to agree with L0rinda that if they target one of the new cards, it will be Spreading Plague and not Ultimate Infestation. The latter is only broken when it's used earlier than turn 10. Ramping is what makes UI overpowered and that goes back to my hypothesis in the previous paragraph that Innervate might be targeted in some way.

When I saw the KoFT card reveals and during the first week of the new expansion, I thought that the new expansion wasn't that impactful and it was only slightly better than TGT. Apart from Druid and the new Highlander Priest, I didn't see any new decks. On the contrary, the ones that still dominated - like Jade Druid, Murloc Pala and Pirate Warrior - had cards from MSG and Un'goro. That's why I think that the Jade mechanic should also be looked upon somehow.

On the other hand, with Druid being banned in almost all games in this weekend's EU playoffs, I thoroughly enjoyed most games. The games were long enough to be challenging for the players and not boring for the viewers, they offered some good highlights and overall the matches seemed well balanced and - what's more important for Blizzard, I guess - enjoyable to watch. By promoting a class that gets instantly banned, Blizzard created the perfect tournament meta (lol).

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      You can think of all the other factors I discuss in this section as reasons not to mulligan away more expensive cards for cheaper ones. If you were to enter into a completely unknown matchup then the mana cost of your cards would almost certainly be the most important factor, but at these ranks we are never entering into an unknown matchup.
      Line Up Theory
      The time you have to mulligan is the all the time you have to determine if your current matchup is "ask and answer" or is dictated by line up theory. Before sending away a single card you should have a decent idea of whether or not line up theory is the axis by which you’ll be attacking this game, as this will completely dictate your mulligan decisions.
      It should be fairly straightforward to understand how line up theory impacts your mulligans. If you’re in the position of the player who has more answers than your opponent has threats then you can’t afford to ship a single answer from your opening hand. You have inevitability on your side if you can assemble all of your answers before they can assemble all of their threats, so you shouldn’t be too concerned if your hand appears to be slow.
      If you’re in the position of the player who has fewer threats than your opponent has answers you likely can’t afford to ship a single threat. The way you win is by playing one more threat than they have an answer for, so you’re also in the market for any cards which might force your opponent to spend one of their precious answers on the wrong target.
      The Matchup
      Some cards have the ability to completely take over a game on their own in certain matchups. If you know exactly which deck you’re up against then keeping these cards in your opening hand is always the correct decision, regardless of whether they cost 10 mana or 1. If nine of the last ten Druids you faced were playing Jade, then you stand to gain much more by holding on to Skulking Geist in your opening hand than you do by mulliganing it away. Let’s explore why.
      In this example nine of the last ten Druids we faced were Jades, which extrapolates to a 90% chance that the current Druid you are currently facing is also a Jade. If you assume that keeping the Skulking Geist drops your win percentage from 50% to 0% against all other Druids (which it doesn’t), you’re still only giving up 5% win percentage over the course of 10 games (50% or .5 divided by 10). This means that keeping the Skulking Geist would still be the smarter decision if getting to play the card increased your overall match win percentage against Jade Druid by more than 5.6% (50% or .5 divided by 9), which I’m almost certain that it does. Though it might seem greedy to keep an expensive or narrow card in your opening hand without being certain what you’re up against, the numbers show that it’s often correct to do so.
      Try to resist the urge to mulligan away an expensive card in your hand before considering the odds that it could tilt the matchup in your favor. Consider the prevalence of each deck in your opponent’s class, as well as the impact an individual card has on the overall win percentage in each matchup. It’s far too complex to calculate exact numbers, but with time and practice you can start to get a sense for when and why you should keep certain narrow or expensive cards in your opening hand.
      Conversely, there are cards which are typically strong in opening hands but must be mulliganed away based on your opponent’s class or the expected matchup. These cards might line up poorly against the enemy’s Hero Power or common class cards. For example, minions with one Health are typically miserable against Mage, and early Deathrattle cards like Kindly Grandmother with 2 power or less can get blown out by Potion of Madness. The ability to recognize when it is correct to mulligan away cards that are typically strong is just as important as the ability to recognize when it is correct keep cards that are typically weak.
      50% Theory
      It is often correct to hold onto a card which might not be ideal but is just above the cut. In what I call “50% Theory”, I always try to stop and ask myself if there is a greater than 50% chance that the card I’m thinking about mulliganing away will turn into a worse one. I often find that my first instinct is to mulligan away a less than perfect card to try and find something better, but that when I apply 50% theory I realize that my odds of improving my hand actually decrease by shipping the card away.
      Curving Out
      Another reason to keep potentially expensive cards is because your hand can naturally curve into them. For example, let’s say you’re playing a deck which typically always mulligans away 4 drops in the dark. If the other two cards in your hand are a 2 drop and a 3 drop, then it could potentially be worth keeping the 4 drop so long as it is a natural follow-up to the other two cards.
      Checking the curve of our hand can also help us catch when we might have too much of a good thing. Many cards which are typically excellent in opening hands might not pair well with the other cards in our hand, or even with a second copy of itself. N'Zoth's First Mate is typically the best card for Pirate Warrior on turn one, but the second copy should almost always be shipped away. The same can often (though not always) be said for Innervate, depending on what the final card or cards in your opener are. If you’re on Aggro Druid and your opening hand is double Innervate + Bittertide Hydra, then you have a potentially game winning play on turn one. If your hand is double Innervate + Living Mana, then you’ll want to ship both the Living Mana and one of the Innervates to try and find yourself a better curve.
      The Checklist
      To recap, here are a list of questions you should ask yourself about each hand while mulliganing:
      Based on my opponent’s class and the local metagame, which decks could my opponent be playing? Is this a line up theory matchup? Are there any narrow answers or threats in my hand? Do I have any cards which are very powerful against one of these decks? Am I increasing my overall win percentage by keeping these cards? Do I have any cards which are very weak against one of these decks? Am I decreasing my overall win percentage by keeping these cards? Does this hand curve out? Does it have a game plan? Do I have any expensive cards which I should mulligan away for something less expensive? If so, is there a greater than 50% chance that getting rid of one of these cards will yield a worse result? It’s important to note that the de facto “most important factor” of mulligans, the mana cost of the cards, is the second to last question when working down this checklist. This isn’t to say that the mana cost of the cards in your opening hand isn’t important, it's just that there are many other things you should be thinking about as well.
      Another thing of note is that I never stop to ask if I have cards in my hand which should be automatically kept. I believe that you can get yourself into trouble by thinking about cards as “automatic keeps”, and should instead start off by viewing each card through the lens of the specific matchups you’re anticipating. Granted, to this day I have still never mulliganed away the first copy of Flametongue Totem, but I’d like to think that’s because I have yet to encounter a matchup where it isn’t good in my opening hand and not because the card is an "automatic keep".
      Conclusion
      Line up theory can help us think about our boards, hands, and decks as distinct sets of limited tools. By lining up our tools against our opponent’s problems we can attempt to organize our game plan into the most effective and thorough plan possible. Some matchups are dictated entirely by line up theory, while in other matchups we can use the lessons we've learned from line up theory to gain small edges in efficiency.
      Mulligans are an often overlooked or misunderstood facet of the game, but they are sometimes the most important decision we make in the entire game. By taking the time to carefully consider all the reasons why we should or shouldn’t keep each card in our opener, we are adding one more edge to our game which will help propel us to the next stage of the ladder.
      For the fourth and final installment of Legend in the Making, I will discuss all of the subtle ways that game behavior can inform the exact content of player’s hands. By analyzing the ordering decisions and tiny mistakes our opponents make we can glean much more information about our their game plan than you might think. Please join me in part four as we make the final push towards our ultimate goal of reaching Legend.
      - Aleco
      Part 1 - Ranks 25 to 15 - Knowing your Role and Embracing Mistakes
      Part 2 - Ranks 15 to 10 - Having a Plan and Playing to Outs
      Part 4 - Ranks 5 to Legend - Tools for the Climb and the Art of the Read
    • By Aleco

      In episode two of "What's the Move?" Aleco discusses an open-ended situation which doesn't have a clear answer.
      In episode two of "What's the Move?" Aleco discusses an open-ended situation which doesn't have a clear answer.
      We kicked off this new series by analyzing a tricky situation which had only one optimal line of play. In episode two we'll take a look at a very different kind of situation, one where there might not be a perfect move at all.
      Please let us know in the comments what you would have done in this situation! One of the primary goals of this series is to foster improvement at Hearthstone by generating discussions. We would also love to hear your feedback on the video itself, as the series is still very new and has plenty room to improve on its format.
      - Aleco
    • By Stan

      In the latest Hearthstone update, Blizzard made adjustments to several cards. The patch is now live now on desktop and it should become available on mobile devices in the coming hours.
      Philosophy and reasons behind these changes can be found here.
      Blizzard (Source)
      Card Changes
      Innervate now reads: Gain 1 Mana Crystal this turn only. (Down from 2)
      Fiery War Axe now costs 3 mana.  (Up from 2)
      Hex now costs 4 mana. (Up from 3)
      Murloc Warleader now reads: Your other Murlocs have +2 Attack. (Down from +2 Attack, +1 Health)
      Spreading Plague now costs 6 mana. (Up from 5) 
    • By Zadina

      A new Brawl has landed in the Tavern.
      Just like with the previous expansions, it's time to try out the deck recipes of Knights of the Frozen Throne in this week's Tavern Brawl. The archetypes for each deck recipe are the following:
      Druid: I guess the best name for this deck is Midrange Druid. It has Ultimate Infestation and Spreading Plague, so... PROFIT?! Deathrattle Hunter Elemental Mage Divine Shield Paladin Control Priest (you've probably seen variations of it in ladder) Jade Deathrattle Rogue Freeze Shaman Zoolock Control Warrior with Enrage minions This is a good opportunity to try out cards that you don't own. Good luck and have fun!
    • By Zadina

      The balance patch is arriving in the beginning of the next week.
      The wait is over! The anticipated card balance changes will arrive on September 18th and hopefully freshen up the meta a little bit. As the case always is with balance patches, for the next two weeks if you disenchant Spreading Plague and/or Murloc Warleader, you will get their full value in Arcane Dust.
      Daxxarri
      In the recent Upcoming Balance Changes – Update 9.1 blog, we discussed the details and philosophy behind balance updates that are coming to several Hearthstone cards:
       
      Innervate - Now reads: Gain 1 Mana Crystal this turn only. (Down from 2) Fiery War Axe - Now costs 3 mana. (Up from 2) Hex - Now costs 4 mana. (Up from 3) Murloc Warleader - Now reads: Your other Murlocs have +2 Attack. (Down from +2 Attack, +1 Health) Spreading Plague - Now costs 6 mana. (Up from 5)
      This patch is currently targeted for September 18th PDT. Please note that updates for mobile devices may take a few additional hours to propagate.

      Once these card changes are live, players will be able to disenchant cards that are not Basic (Murloc Warleader and Spreading Plague) for their full Arcane Dust value for two weeks. Basic cards cannot be disenchanted and will not be available for an Arcane Dust refund. (source)