Damien

Aggro Discard Zoo Warlock Standard

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This thread is for comments about our Discard Warlock Zoo Standard deck.

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The demon synergy is getting there. I've been playing with a variant that has no squires or villagers, but Demonwrath. Watching ONOG there's at least one person running Demonfire.

 

Strangely enough, Demonfuse is still being run by nobody. ;)

Edited by mgoetze

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11 hours ago, Guest Xydaine said:

shouldn't that wrathguard be a succubus?

I came here to say the same things ; but in the card swaps he states that the  Fist of jarraxus could be swapped for a succubus but i really think that succubus would fill in the wrathguard's slot better, same cost, same stats but u dont get screwed for it getting wrecked and u get extra discard to trigger your effects, turn 1 malch imp into turn 2 succubus would be a good opening play i think, maybe cycle some cards to get those high value targets.

Correct me if i'm wrong but i would definitely swap 2x wrathguard for 2x succubus in the original decklist.

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21 hours ago, Guest Barebareman said:

I came here to say the same things ; but in the card swaps he states that the  Fist of jarraxus could be swapped for a succubus but i really think that succubus would fill in the wrathguard's slot better, same cost, same stats but u dont get screwed for it getting wrecked and u get extra discard to trigger your effects, turn 1 malch imp into turn 2 succubus would be a good opening play i think, maybe cycle some cards to get those high value targets.

Correct me if i'm wrong but i would definitely swap 2x wrathguard for 2x succubus in the original decklist.

I think the reasoning behind the wrathguard vs. succubus is mainly due to "over-synergy". If every single card in your deck revolves around discards, you reach a point where you'll have games where you simply have nothing to play. You need to have some solid cards that you can play early on that won't affect your hand. If you have the right cards, of course it's amazing, but let's say you don't draw the imp. I just think Succubus can cause situations early where you leave yourself with nothing to play. 

At the heart of this deck, unfortunately, is RNG. Discarding the right cards at the right time. If you turn 2 succubus and discard your turn 3 play, you lose a turn where you are left to play a 1 drop and tap. In a deck with so many points of RNG that COULD go wrong, I think it's important to have that set of cards that are safe to play: Councilman, Imp Gang, Wrathguard. 

You have Defender/Abusive, but you want those for the effect. You don't want to be forced to play them everytime as a safe option.

If you were to swap it, personally I would agree with Sottle's previous recommendation of Fist vs. Succubus.

I just think this is a situation where thinking of the perfect situation is great, but there's plenty of other times where things could go wrong.

My 2 cents, at least!

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My concern isn't exactly Succubus being bad - a great card, really - but rather that Wrathguard is really, really not great. I am also not a fan of Shield Slams for 10.

Blainie is right - this discard theme is all about managing "investment - payoff" scheme. Jam in too much enablers, never draw a payoff card, enjoy losing. Without enablers you still have Demonic Bloodfen Raptor, a weird 3 mana 3/3 and a 1 mana 1/3 that's actually incredible even without card text.

You can always play a "normal" 2-drop instead of either 4/3s - like Dire Wolf Alpha, which is excellent in turning early combat math in your favor.

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17 hours ago, Paracel said:

I am also not a fan of Shield Slams for 10.

Just like I said in a different thread, if the warrior gets a lot of armor, getting Shield Slammed just shortens the game. I don't recall losing a game to zoo after reaching a point where I had 10 armor. 
One of the worst things that can happen to your Wrathguard is him getting Fireballed, especially when playing against tempo mage. It's still early in the game, the mage will have easier time bursting you down and will have an easier time establishing a board, and if they had Flamewaker and/or Mana Wyrm on the board, it is really bad for you.
Wrathguard is fine against control decks as they usually don't have a way to burst you down even if your Wrathguard was dealt like 6 damage. 
It's also important to know when it's safe to play it. Like, it's dangerous to play it against hunter (or basically any class/deck that likes Barnes) before their turn 4, as they could play Barnes that would spawn Ragnaros the Firelord, which would be a problem if it hit your Wrathguard.

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Like many of you mentionned before ; over-synergy can become a problem; after playing a fair amount of games, i ended up not playing my succubus on turn 2 because it would often have me discard something i want to keep, discarding on turn 2 causes you to have little control over our game. which is why i can see wrathguard being a better pick for your two slots. There is the danger of getting bodied by a shield slam or a damage spell, but i think between the two wrathguard will provide you with more stability.

Plus, like it's been said, if you get shield slammed for 10 dmg you probably had already lost anyways. So i think in the end Wrathguard fills in better than succubus does ; but ill have to play with the original decklist and try to see how much better it fares.

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18 hours ago, Guest Barebareman said:

Like many of you mentionned before ; over-synergy can become a problem; after playing a fair amount of games, i ended up not playing my succubus on turn 2 because it would often have me discard something i want to keep, discarding on turn 2 causes you to have little control over our game. which is why i can see wrathguard being a better pick for your two slots. There is the danger of getting bodied by a shield slam or a damage spell, but i think between the two wrathguard will provide you with more stability.

Plus, like it's been said, if you get shield slammed for 10 dmg you probably had already lost anyways. So i think in the end Wrathguard fills in better than succubus does ; but ill have to play with the original decklist and try to see how much better it fares.

Let us know when you've tried out the original list! It's always good to have feedback from people that try both sides!

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Situations such as this one can often be prevented by playing spells like Holy Nova or Twilight's Call for no value whenever the extra Mana presents itself, especially against control decks. Vivid Velen often struggles to keep its hand size low, and it is frequently correct to play spells for little or no value to free up space for future draws. You can cheat a bit on upgrading your Spellstone if you don't play a Bloodmage Thalnos or a Loot Hoarder. You may also need to do this if one of your non-Velen gets Polymorph or Hexed, as the beast will be added to your dead minion pool for Spellstone. You need to cycle through quite a few card to assemble your combo, so don't be afraid to play Power Word: Shield on your opponent's minions or to play Mass Dispel into an empty board. This is especially true if you already have a Spellstone in hand. If you're in a pinch, Spellstone into Spirit Lash can be used as an emergency button to go back to full health and clear the board, even if it doesn't set up an OTK. This sucks if you have to build up a second Spellstone to OTK again, but at least you'll live to fight another day and can try to kill with Shadowreaper Anduin as a backup plan. It feels like a majority of my games come down to whether or not I choose the correct card off Shadow Visions. I've roped many times on Shadow Visions decisions in the early game, because you get these super difficult choices between card draw, board clears, and combo pieces in a time where it's difficult to say what you'll need most. Though I won't say you should never play Shadow Visions in the early game, I will say that the longer the game goes on, the easier it is to make correct Shadow Visions choices. Unless you're in dire need of a specific board clear to stay alive or a specific combo piece to end the game, it might be smarter to hold onto your Shadow Visions until such a situation arises. I haven't talked at all about Shadow Essence, partly because I have mixed feelings on the card. It seems to have won me about as many games as it has lost me, though its hard say for certain. The card is excellent when you can't find that missing Velen or Radiant Elemental buried at the bottom of your deck, and it's a really strong play on turn 5 off The Coin or a Radiant Elemental which survived the early game. However, Shadow Essence has a nasty tendency to sit around in my hand and be totally useless when I'm behind on board. If I were to make any changes to this deck, I might consider cutting the Shadow Essence for a Holy Smite.  One tough decision which comes up very is often is whether or not you should use a Vivid Nightmare to copy one of the Deathrattle minions, especially to set up a stronger Twilight's Call. Though this is the correct play on occasion, I'd suspect that this is the incorrect line more often than not. Sure, the Vivid Nightmare will typically generate you 2 extra in these situations, but expending a Vivid Nightmare as a card draw tool also means that you'll likely need to draw one more Mind Blast/Radiant Elemental than you would have had to draw previously. It's difficult to say when the extra card draw is better and when the extra combo piece is better, so you'll need to make that judgement call on a case by case basis. Generally speaking, I'd be more inclined to use my Vivid Nightmares on Deathrattle minions if I had a healthy number of total Mind Blast/Radiant Elemental/Vivid Nightmares in hand and needed to dig for Prophet Velen, and would be less inclined to use Vivid Nightmare on Deathrattle minions if I already had Prophet Velen in hand.  
      Combo Priest in The Year of the Raven
       
      Priest rotated more playable cards than any other class when The Year of the Raven began. They lost Drakonid Operative, Dragonfire Potion, Kabal Talonpriest, Potion of Madness, Priest of the Feast, Pint-Size Potion, and Shadow Word: Horror to name a few, in addition to a number of key Neutral minions which were the backbone of the Dragon Priest and Big Priest archetypes.
      Despite these losses, Combo Priests were left largely unscathed by the set rotation. Divine Spirit/Inner Fire decks lost Potion of Madness and Kabal Talonpriest, but the numerous combo cards which were added during The Year of the Mammoth are here to stay. Journey to Un'Goro brought Radiant Elemental, Shadow Visions, and Lyra the Sunshard, Knights of the Frozen Throne added Eternal Servitude and Shadow Essence, and Shadowreaper Anduin, and Kobolds & Catacombs tacked on Lesser Diamond Spellstone and Twilight's Call. This puts Combo Priests (as nebulous a term as that is) in a great position to start The Year of the Raven. Combo Priest have already picked up Vivid Nightmare from The Witchwood, and will almost certainly pick up additional tools in future expansions.
      The Twilight's Call/Diamond Spellstone synergy at the heart of Vivid Velen still has plenty of room for innovation and new decks. Any number of potential OTKS could slot into the Vivid Velen shell in place of Radiant Elemental, Prophet Velen, and Mind Blast. Perhaps a better deck builder than myself will be able to find a new OTK with Twilight's Call/Diamond Spellstone? We're less than a week from the release of The Witchwood, and there is still plenty of time to test new decks on the ladder before the meta fully settles in.
      For now, Vivid Velen certainly seems to be a like strong choice for the current meta. It's extremely difficult to play it optimally, but that's true for all the best combo decks. It's a fun, it's challenging, and it has positive matchups against the three most popular classes in the game. What more could you ask for?
    • By positiv2
      This thread is for comments about our Hand Druid Archetype.