Vlad

Minion Tempo Mage Standard

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This thread is for comments about our Legendary Minion Tempo Mage Standard deck.

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14 hours ago, Kroterholt said:

Could you explain why "cult sorcerer" is in the deck when C'thun isn't?

 

It gives you spell damage and has way better stats than Bloodmage Thalnos, which makes it a strong card.

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2 hours ago, positiv2 said:

It gives you spell damage and has way better stats than Bloodmage Thalnos, which makes it a strong card.

Although I'd argue that taken on an individual base in a vacuum Bloodmage Thalnos is the better card thanks to his deathrattle, you can have two Cult Sorcerers in your deck; which make it the more consistent choice.

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@KeizokuStats, it's all about stats. Bloodmage Thalnos's deathrattle is useful, but so are the extra stats of Cult Sorcerer. Cult Sorcerer does not die to pings, such as hero powers, Mortal Coil or Blood To Ichor, doesn't die to whirlwind effects, and therefore is more likely to survive more turns. In addition, she has more attack, which helps when you are pushing for lethal or when taking trades.
In this very deck, I'd say that they are on the same powerlevel (you can run 1 Cult Sorcerer with Bloodmage Thalnos) and you should choose depending on your matchups, but in more aggressive variants, Cult Sorcerer is the better option from these two cards.

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guys, what I'd really love to try out an arcane giant and a cabalist tome in this deck. do you think it might work and if yes, what should i replace with it?

Edited by voose

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6 hours ago, voose said:

guys, what I'd really love to try out an arcane giant and a cabalist tome in this deck. do you think it might work and if yes, what should i replace with it?

You can try -1 Faceless Summoner, -1 Ragnaros for +2 Arcane Giant. For Cabalist Tome, you can remove one of Mirror Image/Water Elemental/Arcane Anamoly. Thijs was running something similar to that on stream.

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Can this deck really get to legendary?

When you start with mana wyrm and sorcerers apprentice and go second this deck is unstoppable.

But it seems like 90% of the time I mulligan for mana wyrm and end up with mirror entity and no cards I can play until turn 4-6, and by then any hope of retaking the board is lost

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1 hour ago, Abelcain said:

Can this deck really get to legendary?

When you start with mana wyrm and sorcerers apprentice and go second this deck is unstoppable.

But it seems like 90% of the time I mulligan for mana wyrm and end up with mirror entity and no cards I can play until turn 4-6, and by then any hope of retaking the board is lost

Yes, this deck can go legend, but it will be slightly harder than with regular tempo mage.
You don't have to have huge board by turn 3. You can take the board on turns 5-6 by playing Flamewaker and a few spells to clear opponent's board while creating a board for yourself. Even if the opponent is able to gain board after that, you can just stall until you can drop Yogg-Saron, Hope's End.

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On August 25, 2016 at 5:45 AM, positiv2 said:

Yes, this deck can go legend, but it will be slightly harder than with regular tempo mage.
You don't have to have huge board by turn 3. You can take the board on turns 5-6 by playing Flamewaker and a few spells to clear opponent's board while creating a board for yourself. Even if the opponent is able to gain board after that, you can just stall until you can drop Yogg-Saron, Hope's End.

Thank you for the advice, it helped. Before that I would panic by turn 6 and waste all my spells trying to keep them from overwhelming me, but saving them for flamewalker has been much better 

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 This deck makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. I've only ever made 3 legends so far: Archmage,Yogg, and Ragnaros. 

Excellent strategic advice about the addition of the Cult Sorcerers. I find Bloodmage Thanalos to be pretty replace-

able. I run Shifter Xerus sometimes as a catch-all minion. It has good mana curve but not really designed to last into

the late game. I'd support adding a Cabalist's Tome to it just for the ramp up on spells. Once again , kudos on the great

guide and advice !! 

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I quit running Yogg all together, sometimes Yogg just makes you win and is super fun to play. Sometimes it sets up an opponent win and makes you wanna toss your computer out the window.

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I personally don't have Ragnaros, the Firelord or a second Arcane Blast. I went ahead and chose to tech in Flamestrike for a board clear and a Forgotten Torch instead.  For the time being, can I get away with those tech choices? I'm definitely looking to climb to Legend with this build(or similar to this build). 

 

I appreciate all of the work that is put into these guides. It's helped me understand my Mage build way better. 

Edited by Stevie

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5 hours ago, Stevie said:

I personally don't have Ragnaros, the Firelord or a second Arcane Blast. I went ahead and chose to tech in Flamestrike for a board clear and a Forgotten Torch instead.  For the time being, can I get away with those tech choices? I'm definitely looking to climb to Legend with this build(or similar to this build). 

 

I appreciate all of the work that is put into these guides. It's helped me understand my Mage build way better. 

I would probably go with Mirror Image rather than with Forgotten TorchForgotten Torch is a bit too slow and you usually want to end the game early, which means you won't draw Roaring Torch often enough to make Forgotten Torch a good swap. You could also include Archmage Antonidas since he is an additional win condition, just like Ragnaros the Firelord.

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15 hours ago, positiv2 said:

I would probably go with Mirror Image rather than with Forgotten TorchForgotten Torch is a bit too slow and you usually want to end the game early, which means you won't draw Roaring Torch often enough to make Forgotten Torch a good swap. You could also include Archmage Antonidas since he is an additional win condition, just like Ragnaros the Firelord.

I have two Mirror Images in the deck currently. No Archmage Antonidas either, unfortunately. Relatively newer player.  I'm saving dust for either a second arcane blast or Ragnaros/Antonidas for sure.  I'll for sure cut the torch.  I may be better off saving for the second arcane blast after all.  In the meantime, I probably could run a second babbling book maybe?

 

Edited by Stevie

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The text is not fully up to date with the changes from 12 september. Arcane anomaly is no longer in the deck, but it is still mentioned in the paragraph that is now about babbling book.

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1 hour ago, Guest arjan0307 said:

The text is not fully up to date with the changes from 12 september. Arcane anomaly is no longer in the deck, but it is still mentioned in the paragraph that is now about babbling book.

Will look into it and update as required, thanks!

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8 hours ago, Stevie said:

I have two Mirror Images in the deck currently. No Archmage Antonidas either, unfortunately. Relatively newer player.  I'm saving dust for either a second arcane blast or Ragnaros/Antonidas for sure.  I'll for sure cut the torch.  I may be better off saving for the second arcane blast after all.  In the meantime, I probably could run a second babbling book maybe?

Yeah, that could work as a temporary switch, though the results will often be subpar. You could also try Arcane Anomaly if you face a lot of aggro decks.

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4 hours ago, Direwolf said:

Does this deck need to be updated post-Yogg nerf? Swap out Yogg for someone else? 

This deck is centered around Yogg-Saron, Hope's End (hence the name), and swapping him for a different card would make this deck a generic tempo mage with Ragnaros the Firelord. This deck should be moved to the "Unique decks" category instead imo.

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8 hours ago, ChaosDestiny said:

I find Yogg-Saron, Hope's End is really bad after the nerf... it simply kill himselves after 4th or 5th spell and doesnt give anything actually useful before he died.

Unfortunately, he is just even more RNG dependent. He still has the potential to be game changing, it's just more likely than it was before to be worse for you.

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    • By Aleco



       
      Everything you'll need to dominate ranks 10 through 5 on the ladder.
      In part three we learn about "line up theory", the art or matching up threats and answers. We also explore the importance of mulligans and why it may not always be correct to ship away expensive cards.
      Legend in the Making: Part 3
      Ranks 10 to 5 - Line Up Theory and Mulligans
      The first two parts of this series taught a top-down approach for approaching decisions in Hearthstone. Mastering these broad and fundamental concepts of Hearthstone gave us the weapons to dominate any opponent attempting to fight us unarmed. Knowing your role at rank 20 is like bringing a knife to fist fight, and having a plan at rank 15 is like bringing a gun to knife fight.
      Understanding the big picture concepts which are relevant in nearly every game creates a huge degree of separation between ourselves and our opponents, but as we progress up the ladder and begin to learn about more and more narrow topics this margin begins to shrink. The massive advantage which comes from “having a plan” against an opponent who doesn’t is much smaller than the advantage you’ll gain from learning about “line up theory” in part three against an opponent who hasn’t learned this same concept.
      This is the nature of progress. The gap which separates us from our competition grows smaller and smaller as we get better and better. The margin for error shrinks. The difference between victory and defeat is no longer a misunderstanding of the matchup, it’s attacking the wrong minion on turn 7 or shipping away the wrong card in our mulligan. This is why it is critically important, now more than ever, that we internalize the broader lessons from parts one and two before moving on to the more specific concepts which I cover in parts three and four. You stand to gain a much bigger by mastering the broadest skills first.
      Section 1 - The Essence of Progress
      Making Smaller Circles
      As we gain experience and internalize concepts on a deeper and deeper level, questions which were once complex and demanded a significant portion of our thinking power start to be answered instinctively. The macro becomes second nature and our minds become free to begin worrying about the micro, then the old micro becomes our new macro and the process repeats itself. This is a process called “making smaller circles” in The Art of Learning, a book which I’ve recommended ad nauseum in this series.
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      As it applies to Hearthstone, the biggest advantage which will come from making smaller circles is the amount of thinking time it will buy us. By gaining the ability to quickly evaluate something which would have once taken us a long time we free our minds to focus on something new. We get to think more, and thinking more is often thinking is smarter.
      The higher up we climb the ladder the smaller our margin for error becomes. A great way to minimize on these errors is create more time for ourselves by making smaller circles. But there is another, much more simple way to buy ourselves more thinking time.
      Slow Down!
      As the margins between defeat and victory tighten the costs of making mistakes are greatly magnified. There’s a huge difference between a mistake due to a lack of understanding a making a mistake due to a lack of focus. Mistakes made from a lack of understanding can only be corrected with time and practice, while mistakes made from a lack of focus are entirely preventable.
      A turn in Hearthstone times out after 75 seconds, and with 20 seconds left the rope will appear across the middle of the screen. There is no penalty for taking each turn to rope and there are no bonus points for playing quickly. However, there is a massive penalty for playing too fast and making mistakes as a result. The most your opponent can do to complain about how long you are taking is emote “Hello”, so what do you have to lose by taking more time?
      I can’t teach you how to be smarter or have better focus, but I certainly share with you a framework for making the most out your time each of turn. More time means more thinking, more thinking means smarter decisions, and helping you make smarter decisions is the entire goal of the “Legend in the Making” series. Here are some steps you can take to ensure that you’re using time to your advantage:
      Decide what the plan is. If there is still time left in the turn before you must act (the rope hasn’t appeared yet), see if you come up with a different plan. If there is no other plan, use the rest of your time to plan out future turns and consider the outs for you and your opponent. If there is another plan, compare and contrast the advantages of both plans to decide which one is better. If there is still time left in the turn after you’ve compared the two plans, try to see if you can come up with another plan and repeat this process. There will probably be many turns where this process feels laborious and unnecessary. Your first instinct will often be the correct one and might feel as though you just wasted time and effort for no benefit. The beauty of this process is that it doesn’t truly matter if your decisions don’t change as a result of this extra time and focus, because to reflect and ask yourself questions is the fastest way to internalize the finer details of the game! This is how you make smaller circles.
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      Section 2 - Line Up Theory
      Hearthstone is a game of threats and answers, both of which can come in many forms. A threat might be a wide board of buffed-up Murlocs thanks to Murloc Warleader, and answer to this threat might be a single Dragonfire Potion. A 12/12 Edwin VanCleef is a threat which can be answered by 12 power worth of minions.
      A threat is anything a player can use to win the game if their opponent doesn't have an answer for it, and an answer is any way to remove a threat. The battle of aggro vs control is fundamentally a battle of threats against answers. It’s the aggro player’s job to present the threats their opponent is least likely to have an answer to, and it's the control player’s job to answer the threats presented by the aggro player in such a way that they will still have the ability to handle the next one.
      It is often the case that a specific answer lines up against a specific threat in such a way that one player comes out of the exchange at huge advantage. A classic example is the threat of Tirion Fordring and the answer of Polymorph. Casting Polymorph on Tirion cleanly answers his big body, his Divine Shield, and his Deathrattle trigger. Without a Polymorph, answering a Tirion might require a combination of your hero power, some spells, and minion attacks just to take down his 6/6 Taunt body, and when everything's said and done your opponent still gets a 5/3 weapon. Sounds like a disaster! Cards like Polymorph and Hex line up very well against Tirion while most other answers line up against him poorly. This is “line up theory”, a method for assigning specific answers to specific threats in an effort to create advantages and avoid disasters.
      Lining Up Decks
      We can use line up theory to help us understand the correct approach to most matchups. Through line up theory we can determine which matchups are “ask and answer”, or classic aggro vs control games where the lining up of threats and answers is determined most by the present, and we can also discover which matchups are dictated more by a deck vs deck approach to lining up threats and answers. Let’s see an example of a matchup where threats and answers are far more important than roles, and where the “plan” is to have the correct answers to line up against the correct threats.
      Giant Miracle Rogue is a deck with some very powerful threats and the ability to quickly cycle through its deck to consistently find them. It also runs a very limited number threats due to the density of its cheap spells. They typically look to set up a single turn where they clear their opponent’s board and play out a massive Edwin VanCleef and/or multiple Arcane Giants and overwhelm their opponent on tempo with the size of their creatures.
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      The Narrow Answer
      When lining up decks against one another you’ll often find that there are only one or two key cards in either deck which demand specific answers from their opponent. Polymorphs for a Tirion Fordring, or Volcanic Potions for a Living Mana, for example. It may not always make sense to mold your entire strategy from the perspective of line up theory, but the knowledge of how these threats and answers line up against each other still has an impact on the way you play out the game.
      When playing against an opponent who has a threat in their deck which demands a specific answer from your own, the goal is to hold onto your narrow answer for as long humanly possible. Patience is key, especially if your opponent also understands how line up theory works. Whoever bites first and plays their threat into a narrow answer or uses their narrow answer on the wrong threat will often lose as a result. Unless you’re under direct threat of dying, hold onto that narrow answer at all costs and find a different way to answer your opponent’s other threats.
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      Section 3 - Mulligans
      Mulligans are among the most complex and important decisions in the entire game, yet they are often overlooked or taken for granted as deterministic.
      The majority of deck guides I’ve seen around the internet list cards which are considered “keeps”, but this completely fails to recognize the importance of matchups when it comes to mulligan decisions. More thorough deck guides will list the cards which are keeps in every matchup, and though this is certainly a step closer to the truth it still doesn’t tell the entire story.
      To be to fair to all the excellent deck guide writers out there, there are certain decks which will almost always want to keep certain cards. For example, I very rarely mulligan away Wild Growth while playing as Ramp Druid. It’s a card you can play early and is simultaneously critical for the deck’s gameplan, but is it always correct to keep two Wild Growths? Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn’t. There are certain matchups where double Wild Growth is the stone cold nut, but there are other matchups where it might be more important to dig for something that impacts the board.
      In this section I’ll attempt to teach you all of the different factors I’ve discovered for informing mulligan decisions. Factors can vary wildly in importance from matchup to matchup, hand to hand, and deck to deck, so the real talent to mulligans is knowing when each of these factors takes precedence over the others.
      Mana Cost
      The level zero, most basic mulligan tip that everyone learns first is to mulligan away your expensive cards so that you can find cheap ones that you can play early. It makes sense why you’d want to do this as it’s very advantageous to curve out (use all of your mana on cards which cost as much mana as you have available that turn), and you can’t exactly curve out in the first few turns if you are sitting on a hand full of expensive cards.
      You can think of all the other factors I discuss in this section as reasons not to mulligan away more expensive cards for cheaper ones. If you were to enter into a completely unknown matchup then the mana cost of your cards would almost certainly be the most important factor, but at these ranks we are never entering into an unknown matchup.
      Line Up Theory
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      It should be fairly straightforward to understand how line up theory impacts your mulligans. If you’re in the position of the player who has more answers than your opponent has threats then you can’t afford to ship a single answer from your opening hand. You have inevitability on your side if you can assemble all of your answers before they can assemble all of their threats, so you shouldn’t be too concerned if your hand appears to be slow.
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      The Matchup
      Some cards have the ability to completely take over a game on their own in certain matchups. If you know exactly which deck you’re up against then keeping these cards in your opening hand is always the correct decision, regardless of whether they cost 10 mana or 1. If nine of the last ten Druids you faced were playing Jade, then you stand to gain much more by holding on to Skulking Geist in your opening hand than you do by mulliganing it away. Let’s explore why.
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      Try to resist the urge to mulligan away an expensive card in your hand before considering the odds that it could tilt the matchup in your favor. Consider the prevalence of each deck in your opponent’s class, as well as the impact an individual card has on the overall win percentage in each matchup. It’s far too complex to calculate exact numbers, but with time and practice you can start to get a sense for when and why you should keep certain narrow or expensive cards in your opening hand.
      Conversely, there are cards which are typically strong in opening hands but must be mulliganed away based on your opponent’s class or the expected matchup. These cards might line up poorly against the enemy’s Hero Power or common class cards. For example, minions with one Health are typically miserable against Mage, and early Deathrattle cards like Kindly Grandmother with 2 power or less can get blown out by Potion of Madness. The ability to recognize when it is correct to mulligan away cards that are typically strong is just as important as the ability to recognize when it is correct keep cards that are typically weak.
      50% Theory
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      Curving Out
      Another reason to keep potentially expensive cards is because your hand can naturally curve into them. For example, let’s say you’re playing a deck which typically always mulligans away 4 drops in the dark. If the other two cards in your hand are a 2 drop and a 3 drop, then it could potentially be worth keeping the 4 drop so long as it is a natural follow-up to the other two cards.
      Checking the curve of our hand can also help us catch when we might have too much of a good thing. Many cards which are typically excellent in opening hands might not pair well with the other cards in our hand, or even with a second copy of itself. N'Zoth's First Mate is typically the best card for Pirate Warrior on turn one, but the second copy should almost always be shipped away. The same can often (though not always) be said for Innervate, depending on what the final card or cards in your opener are. If you’re on Aggro Druid and your opening hand is double Innervate + Bittertide Hydra, then you have a potentially game winning play on turn one. If your hand is double Innervate + Living Mana, then you’ll want to ship both the Living Mana and one of the Innervates to try and find yourself a better curve.
      The Checklist
      To recap, here are a list of questions you should ask yourself about each hand while mulliganing:
      Based on my opponent’s class and the local metagame, which decks could my opponent be playing? Is this a line up theory matchup? Are there any narrow answers or threats in my hand? Do I have any cards which are very powerful against one of these decks? Am I increasing my overall win percentage by keeping these cards? Do I have any cards which are very weak against one of these decks? Am I decreasing my overall win percentage by keeping these cards? Does this hand curve out? Does it have a game plan? Do I have any expensive cards which I should mulligan away for something less expensive? If so, is there a greater than 50% chance that getting rid of one of these cards will yield a worse result? It’s important to note that the de facto “most important factor” of mulligans, the mana cost of the cards, is the second to last question when working down this checklist. This isn’t to say that the mana cost of the cards in your opening hand isn’t important, it's just that there are many other things you should be thinking about as well.
      Another thing of note is that I never stop to ask if I have cards in my hand which should be automatically kept. I believe that you can get yourself into trouble by thinking about cards as “automatic keeps”, and should instead start off by viewing each card through the lens of the specific matchups you’re anticipating. Granted, to this day I have still never mulliganed away the first copy of Flametongue Totem, but I’d like to think that’s because I have yet to encounter a matchup where it isn’t good in my opening hand and not because the card is an "automatic keep".
      Conclusion
      Line up theory can help us think about our boards, hands, and decks as distinct sets of limited tools. By lining up our tools against our opponent’s problems we can attempt to organize our game plan into the most effective and thorough plan possible. Some matchups are dictated entirely by line up theory, while in other matchups we can use the lessons we've learned from line up theory to gain small edges in efficiency.
      Mulligans are an often overlooked or misunderstood facet of the game, but they are sometimes the most important decision we make in the entire game. By taking the time to carefully consider all the reasons why we should or shouldn’t keep each card in our opener, we are adding one more edge to our game which will help propel us to the next stage of the ladder.
      For the fourth and final installment of Legend in the Making, I will discuss all of the subtle ways that game behavior can inform the exact content of player’s hands. By analyzing the ordering decisions and tiny mistakes our opponents make we can glean much more information about our their game plan than you might think. Please join me in part four as we make the final push towards our ultimate goal of reaching Legend.
      - Aleco
      Part 1 - Ranks 25 to 15 - Knowing your Role and Embracing Mistakes
      Part 2 - Ranks 15 to 10 - Having a Plan and Playing to Outs
      Part 4 - Ranks 5 to Legend - Tools for the Climb and the Art of the Read
    • By Aleco

      In episode two of "What's the Move?" Aleco discusses an open-ended situation which doesn't have a clear answer.
      In episode two of "What's the Move?" Aleco discusses an open-ended situation which doesn't have a clear answer.
      We kicked off this new series by analyzing a tricky situation which had only one optimal line of play. In episode two we'll take a look at a very different kind of situation, one where there might not be a perfect move at all.
      Please let us know in the comments what you would have done in this situation! One of the primary goals of this series is to foster improvement at Hearthstone by generating discussions. We would also love to hear your feedback on the video itself, as the series is still very new and has plenty room to improve on its format.
      - Aleco
    • By Stan

      In the latest Hearthstone update, Blizzard made adjustments to several cards. The patch is now live now on desktop and it should become available on mobile devices in the coming hours.
      Philosophy and reasons behind these changes can be found here.
      Blizzard (Source)
      Card Changes
      Innervate now reads: Gain 1 Mana Crystal this turn only. (Down from 2)
      Fiery War Axe now costs 3 mana.  (Up from 2)
      Hex now costs 4 mana. (Up from 3)
      Murloc Warleader now reads: Your other Murlocs have +2 Attack. (Down from +2 Attack, +1 Health)
      Spreading Plague now costs 6 mana. (Up from 5) 
    • By Vlad
      This thread is for comments about our Halls of Valor Mythic+ dungeon guide.
    • By Zadina

      A new Brawl has landed in the Tavern.
      Just like with the previous expansions, it's time to try out the deck recipes of Knights of the Frozen Throne in this week's Tavern Brawl. The archetypes for each deck recipe are the following:
      Druid: I guess the best name for this deck is Midrange Druid. It has Ultimate Infestation and Spreading Plague, so... PROFIT?! Deathrattle Hunter Elemental Mage Divine Shield Paladin Control Priest (you've probably seen variations of it in ladder) Jade Deathrattle Rogue Freeze Shaman Zoolock Control Warrior with Enrage minions This is a good opportunity to try out cards that you don't own. Good luck and have fun!