Damien

Y'Shaarj Hunter Standard

27 posts in this topic

This thread is for comments about our Legendary Y'Shaarj Hunter Standard deck.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Having a lot of fun playing this deck.  When it goes wrong, it goes very wrong indeed - but when the planets are in alignment (even if you don't get the Barnes combo off on turn 3/4) it's more fun than I've had in a long time playing HS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This fine piece of technology showcases why Barnes is a disgusting slice of cheddar cheese a major design mistake that should not be tolerated. 

For a lot of people (including me) he looked fine when he got spoiled - an interesting and variative card that rewards deckbuilding decisions and oozes with flavor - what can be better than a 1\1 actor playing the part of your favorite card?

That's where the good stuff ends. It is really easy to break the 1-mana value off the copy, taking into the account our Glorious Overlord Spider Tank is The Golden Standard Of Vanilla 3-drop. What's even more easy is to make Barnes's Battlecry a complete blowout. Tirion FordringRagnaros the FirelordCairne BloodhoofSylvanas WindrunnerMalygos. Even just a Savannah Highmane or Infested Wolf is already over-the-top enough to cause a ton of problems. Even Resurrect and Purify suddenly look good!

Low opportunity cost, high payoff, RNG frustrating for both sides. It is like Yogg-Saron, Hope's End turn 4, except it doesn't fizzle at all.

Adding Y'Shaarj, Rage Unbound to the mix makes things even worse, because people who are playing a "fair" Barnes are at least operating in value territory. I get death threats from people whom I kill in less cheesy and slower combo fashion. With free turn 4 win, everyone can feel the fairness of the game.

While a concept of a "free win" is no alien to TCG, I do not think it should belong to the universal "oops nuts draw" territory, but rather be an example of how does one makes a deck with unique angle of attack, having certain matchups very lopsided. Zoo Warlock is a free win for Freeze Mage but Control Warrior is literally unbeatable - that's a normal "free win" set-up.

 


26 other cards in the deck are fine. A nice meme deck overall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's not really a free win in this deck: it's just fun to play.  Even if you play Barnes on turn 3/4 and end up with a 3/4, 1/1 and 10/10, you are not necessarily in an auto-win situation.  And, on most plays, the combo doesn't come out.  Y'Shaarj comes out first, well, at least half the time, which isn't all that can go wrong.

It's not as bad as you're making out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My biggest concern is not the consistency of such interaction, but rather the sole possibility of it, which I do not believe to be a balanced and healthy gameplay. If a game is presented and sold as a competitive and e-sports product, its outcome should be decided by skill, not the order of your draws. The concept of TCG presents enough variance as it is.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Paracel said:

its outcome should be decided by skill

If this is your complaint, then Barnes is not your only problem.  Chess is pure skill: Hearthstone is heavily loaded with variance in so many ways it would be strange to have to list them.  We're drawing cards from a deck, is the first thing, and a core mechanic.  The decks are different: massive variance.  So many cards rely on random effects.

There's a deck that celebrates the random madness of the game here: http://www.icy-veins.com/hearthstone/randuin-wrynn-priest-deck

Removing all the variance I don't know what would be left.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, mimech said:

 We're drawing cards from a deck, is the first thing, and a core mechanic.  The decks are different: massive variance.  

That's precisely what I said. I double-check my posts when I'm complaining about balance.

14 hours ago, Paracel said:

The concept of TCG presents enough variance as it is.

 

5 hours ago, mimech said:

Chess is pure skill: Hearthstone is heavily loaded with variance in so many ways it would be strange to have to list them.  

Removing all the variance I don't know what would be left.

What would be left is an actually good, World of Warcraft -flavored Chess with normal TCG variance. RNG is as much fun as actually winning because you did the right thing.

What I meant to point out is that cards with the word "random" in them are really hard to balance out and really easy to break. It feels fine yet stil NaCl generating when it's a relatively low impact or low variance, like Knife Juggler. Barnes is exactly the other side of spectrum.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, mimech said:

If this is your complaint, then Barnes is not your only problem.  Chess is pure skill: Hearthstone is heavily loaded with variance in so many ways it would be strange to have to list them.  We're drawing cards from a deck, is the first thing, and a core mechanic.  The decks are different: massive variance.  So many cards rely on random effects.

There's a deck that celebrates the random madness of the game here: http://www.icy-veins.com/hearthstone/randuin-wrynn-priest-deck

Removing all the variance I don't know what would be left.

Just because there's variance involved in every card game, doesn't mean it should be taken to extremes like barnes or yogg. If some variance is present, the better players are still likely to win games against the inferior ones, with the odd loss here and there to nutty draws by their opponent. But it seems that with every expansion so far they are pushing the game towards being more coin flippy, not the other way around.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, JooBatanete said:

Just because there's variance involved in every card game, doesn't mean it should be taken to extremes like barnes or yogg

As it's being explained to me, I'm understanding the subtleties better.  I've been ignoring Yogg as a sort of way out there chaos engine, but as time's gone on, I've been watching streamers get fairly solid positive results with the card.

I think time will tell with Barnes.  This particular Hunter build doesn't seem too OP to me, but then maybe I'm just playing it poorly.  I'm not sure if I've lost any match where the combo comes up - the opponent has to spend too many resources removing it to allow them to survive for long.  My win rate when I don't get the combo is a lot worse (and definitely under 50%).  

So: does the crutch of having no other minions but Barnes and Y'Shaarj outweigh the ridiculous combo?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My problem with Barnes is not randomness. I like randomness. Evolve is my favourite card. My problem with Barnes is his power. Make him 4 mana 3\3 and let it generate 0\1 copy of some random minion in your deck and I have zero problem with it. You still like your minions with active\inspire\end of the turn abilities. You still have your powerful deathrattles but it is a bit harder to pop them. And you are not happy if you get 3\3 and vanilla 0\1 on turn 4.  One\few minions decks like this one require players to do sacrifices, Yeti that can win you a game on spot, requires few sacrifices.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Strongpoint said:

My problem with Barnes is not randomness. I like randomness. Evolve is my favourite card. My problem with Barnes is his power. Make him 4 mana 3\3 and let it generate 0\1 copy of some random minion in your deck and I have zero problem with it. You still like your minions with active\inspire\end of the turn abilities. You still have your powerful deathrattles but it is a bit harder to pop them. And you are not happy if you get 3\3 and vanilla 0\1 on turn 4.  One\few minions decks like this one require players to do sacrifices, Yeti that can win you a game on spot, requires few sacrifices.

A step in the right direction, but a 0/1 Malygos/Tharassian can still end a game.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

On 06.09.2016 at 3:37 AM, JooBatanete said:

Just because there's variance involved in every card game, doesn't mean it should be taken to extremes like barnes or yogg. If some variance is present, the better players are still likely to win games against the inferior ones, with the odd loss here and there to nutty draws by their opponent. But it seems that with every expansion so far they are pushing the game towards being more coin flippy, not the other way around.

Barnes would be a coinflip if he either lost or win the game. he doesn't work like that. Barnes either give the player a decent, good, very good, or game winning result.  This is awful even for guys like me who like gambling. I want to make decision and take calculated risks, not have "I got Barnes, time for a free win chance" to win

Barnes is a Tuskar totemic squared. I would love Tuskar totemic if we had one or two awful totems to roll.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/24/2016 at 2:17 PM, Strongpoint said:

 

Barnes would be a coinflip if he either lost or win the game. he doesn't work like that. Barnes either give the player a decent, good, very good, or game winning result.  This is awful even for guys like me who like gambling. I want to make decision and take calculated risks, not have "I got Barnes, time for a free win chance" to win

Barnes is a Tuskar totemic squared. I would love Tuskar totemic if we had one or two awful totems to roll.  

So you want it nerfed because it works too well for you? I can't remember the last time I saw a Mana Tide/Flametongue from TT :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

On 26.09.2016 at 2:47 AM, Blainie said:

So you want it nerfed because it works too well for you? I can't remember the last time I saw a Mana Tide/Flametongue from TT :(

I want it nerfed because even with my 3 month experience of hearthstone it is obvious that it is too strong. Blizzard does nerf it to summoning only basic totems and it seems fine but this makes card far less fun for me. 

Question is - when Barnes will get nerfed? :D

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Strongpoint said:

 

I want it nerfed because even with my 3 month experience of hearthstone it is obvious that it is too strong. Blizzard does nerf it to summoning only basic totems and it seems fine but this makes card far less fun for me. 

Question is - when Barnes will get nerfed? :D

 

How exactly does one propose they Nerf Barnes? I keep hearing people say this but I haven't seen any suggestions as to what he would read after the Nerf. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/28/2016 at 9:08 PM, KingMe said:

How exactly does one propose they Nerf Barnes? I keep hearing people say this but I haven't seen any suggestions as to what he would read after the Nerf. 

Lower stats is often a big hope, since right now he is at worst a Yeti, at best he could be anything.

Maybe going down to a 3/3 that spawns a 0/1. I think that's one of the main propositions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Blainie said:

Lower stats is often a big hope, since right now he is at worst a Yeti, at best he could be anything.

Maybe going down to a 3/3 that spawns a 0/1. I think that's one of the main propositions.

That's actually not too bad of a proposition. Even a 3/3 - 1/1 would be an improvement. Either way he would still be a broken card with those stats. As crazy as Blizzard is with their nerfs, I see them dropping him down to a 2/2 maybe a 2/3 while keep the spawn at 1/1. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/3/2016 at 7:08 AM, KingMe said:

That's actually not too bad of a proposition. Even a 3/3 - 1/1 would be an improvement. Either way he would still be a broken card with those stats. As crazy as Blizzard is with their nerfs, I see them dropping him down to a 2/2 maybe a 2/3 while keep the spawn at 1/1. 

Probably yeah. I think the effect won't be touched, stats are almost guaranteed to be hit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 1/1 loses all abilities (such as deathrattles, spell power or abilities that trigger at the end of turn) until the start of your turn, This way your opponent has time to kill the 1/1 before it becomes a powerful tool (Ragnaros the FirelordEmperor Thaurissan...) and disables the possibility of OTK Malygos combo in midgame. It would kill this deck, but would improve the game as whole imo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is actually a very good suggestion. Gives the opposing player a chance to deal with the board state before being buried by a broken mechanic, not unlike the Patron/Worgen/Force of Nature nerfs.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

glad to see im not the only one seeing how far i can push Barnes. 

I've been mucking about with him in a Priest/resurrect deck. If he pulls up a token of something big, you can silence it to pop it right back to the original stats. If your opponent kills it, you can resurrect it back to normal size. Can you imagine starting turn 5 with TWO 10/10 YShaarj?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/6/2016 at 8:33 PM, Allegro said:

glad to see im not the only one seeing how far i can push Barnes. 

I've been mucking about with him in a Priest/resurrect deck. If he pulls up a token of something big, you can silence it to pop it right back to the original stats. If your opponent kills it, you can resurrect it back to normal size. Can you imagine starting turn 5 with TWO 10/10 YShaarj?

It would probably produce some pretty wild results!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been tracking my games (rank 13-14 right now). 50% win rate with 32 games played. I can successfully trigger the Barnes-Y'Shaarj combo just under 60% of the time, and win those combos about 84%.

when i don't trigger the combo... i haven't been able to win yet

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your content will need to be approved by a moderator

Guest
You are commenting as a guest. If you have an account, please sign in.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoticons maximum are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Zadina

      Dave Kosak is here with a new Hearthside Chat to talk about Dungeon Runs. He also showcased a legendary card from the new expansion!
      We've already talked about Dungeon Runs, one of the new features that Kobolds & Catacombs will bring. Lead Mission Designer Dave Kosak explains in this latest Hearthside Chat the design process behind Dungeon Runs.
      Dave presented some unique elements only present in Dungeon Runs. For example, there is a card you can pick called Cloak of Invisibility, which has a Passive effect of giving your minions permanent Stealth.
      He also gave some insight on the encounters. Some Dungeon Runs can have thematic encounters, like there's a band of Troggs or Trolls you will have to beat. As far as the Trolls are concerned, Battlecrier Jin'zo has a passive effect that is similar to Brann Bronzebeard, which you and him can both benefit from! Similarly, Spiritspeaker Azun's passive works like Baron Rivendare for both parties, while Voodoomaster Vex combines both of these passive effects!
      The narrator, that will be guiding you through your Dungeon Run, is King Togwaggle - the king of the Kobolds himself! He is also going to be an actual card available in the next expansion:

      Images from Hearthpwn
      Here's the official blog post with everything you need to know about Dungeon Runs:
      Blizzard Entertainment
      What’s a Dungeon Run?
      Dungeon Run is a new insanely fun, single-player “rogue-like” mode where you’ll face deadly encounters and collect incredible Treasures to build a deck worthy of a hero!
      When your Dungeon Run starts, you’ll choose a Hero and receive a starting deck consisting of 10 cards. You’ll use it to overcome eight encounters of increasing difficulty (chosen randomly from a huge pool of 48 possible encounters!) to clear the run.

      That initial deck might be enough to help you squeak by your first opponent, but you’ll need to get stronger if you hope to clear the whole run. Each time you defeat a Dungeon Run encounter, you’ll be given an opportunity to “level up” your Dungeon Run deck with themed sets of three cards appropriate to your class. Occasionally, you’ll also be able to pick from a selection of three incredibly powerful Treasure cards—non-collectible cards and abilities made just for this mode that are too blatantly overpowered to see normal play.
      You’ll need all that power—as well as your wits—because these encounters can be fiendishly difficult. Victory is not assured, and each encounter has its own unique perils. If one of them gets the better of you, defeat is permanent, so you’ll have to start a different run with a whole new deck!
      If you manage to complete a full Dungeon Run with each of the nine Classes—no mean feat!—you’ll add the Candle King card back to your collection.

      (source)
    • By Aleco

      Mage's Spellstone card for hints at a potential Elemental theme for the class in the upcoming set.
      Mage's Spellstone was revealed today by Chinese Hearthstone streamer LvGe, hinting at a potential Elemental theme for the Mage class in K&C:

      Card image courtesy of Hearthpwn.com
      The upgraded versions of Ruby Spellstone will provide an additional random Mage Spell for every two Elementals you can play while this card is in your hand, meaning that this card is capable of becoming a two mana Cabalist's Tome! The lesser version of this spell isn't very enticing, but both of the upgraded versions of Ruby Spellstone seem like quite the deal. Unfortunately, the requirement to upgrade Ruby Spellstone is quite prohibitive and will likely hold this card back from seeing widespread play on the ladder.
      Let us know what you think about Ruby Spellstone in the comment section, and be sure to check out our Kobolds and Catacombs hub for more information on the upcoming set.
    • By Zadina

      In this article, we are covering two new cards: Temporus, a Priest legendary minion, and Benevolent Djinn, a Paladin common minion.
      Benevolent Djinn was revealed earlier today by Thai player Anothersayoran1. The name of the card was officially confirmed by Puffin.

      Image by Hearthpwn.
      It is difficult to judge this card without seeing it in action. It’s comparable to Friendly Bartender: while the Djinn heals for more, its 2 attack value is a bit mediocre for a 3-mana minion. Shaman’s Hot Spring Guardian is slightly better, since it has Taunt and a targeted heal effect. Then again, Djinn also acts like a Taunt, in the sense that your opponent probably has to spend early resources to remove its powerful effect. Both cards, though, are beaten by Tar Creeper.
      This make the Djinn a great anti-aggro tool. Additionally, it synergises well with Blackguard and its Elemental tribe means that maybe we’ll get to see an Elemental Paladin. This is definitely a powerful Arena card. But can it secure a spot in constructed mode? It looks difficult, since Paladin already has some great 3-mana minions.

      This intriguing minion was revealed by Eurogamer. Its sister site, Metabomb, sat down with Peter Whalen and Ben Thompson to talk about this card. Both developers think that Temporus can be run in either the classic OTK Priest (Divine Spirit + Inner Fire) or in two new versions of Dragon Priest: a more midrange one and an OTK one with Malygos. 
      It would be interesting to see what it's interaction is going to be with Brann Bronzebeard. Temporus is a "high risk, high reward" card and, even if you don't like it or it turns out to be bad, you'd still have to commend its design.
      Don't forget to check out our Kobolds & Catacombs hub for everything you need to know about the upcoming expansion!
    • By Zadina

      The 2016 Hearthstone World Champion revealed this rare Druid card.
      Grizzled Guardian was unveiled on Pavel's YouTube channel. It's a rare Druid Beast, that costs 8 mana and has 3 attack and 5 health. It has Taunt and Deathrattle: "Recruit 2 minions that cost (4) or less". Pavel's video is in Russian, but you can enable accurate English subtitles to see what the World Champion has to say about that card.
      After watching Pavel's video, I am convinced that Grizzled Guardian isn't as bad as it looks at first sight. Sure, its stats are garbage, but you should also factor in the stats of the minions it pulls from your deck when it dies. Still, it's hard to see it fit into the current meta. Perhaps, it can see play when the Year of the Kraken sets rotate out of Standard. It also weakens the 8-mana slot for Evolve and similar effect.
      What's your opinion on Grizzled Veteran? As always, all the cards of the new expansion can be found in our Kobolds & Catacombs hub.
      PS: Turns out it's not Hogger 3.0 :(
    • By Aleco

      The newest Legendary Shaman minion has me shaking in my boots. Is this the card that will put Elemental Shaman over the top?
      Chinese Hearthstone streamer Snowkiss has revealed the Legendary Shaman minion from K&C. This bad boy appears to pack quite the punch - my mind is already racing with potential combos and synergies for Grumble, World Shaker:

      Card image courtesy of Hearthpwn.com
      Elementals have plenty of powerful Battlecry triggers which Grumble could play for a second time. Kalimos, Primal Lord, Servant of Kalimos, Blazecaller, and Jade Spirit immediately come to mind as potent synergies for the shaker of worlds. Grumble could also be used to double down of Jade cards such as Jade Chieftain and Aya Blackpaw, or could even be used to recycle the Battlecry triggers of the old gods. All of this on a 7/7 for 6 mana? Sign me up!
      Is this the card that Elemental Shaman has been waiting for? Let us know what you think about Grumble in the comment section, and check out our Kobolds and Catacombs hub for more information on the upcoming set.