Damien

Y'Shaarj Hunter Standard

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This thread is for comments about our Legendary Y'Shaarj Hunter Standard deck.

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Having a lot of fun playing this deck.  When it goes wrong, it goes very wrong indeed - but when the planets are in alignment (even if you don't get the Barnes combo off on turn 3/4) it's more fun than I've had in a long time playing HS.

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This fine piece of technology showcases why Barnes is a disgusting slice of cheddar cheese a major design mistake that should not be tolerated. 

For a lot of people (including me) he looked fine when he got spoiled - an interesting and variative card that rewards deckbuilding decisions and oozes with flavor - what can be better than a 1\1 actor playing the part of your favorite card?

That's where the good stuff ends. It is really easy to break the 1-mana value off the copy, taking into the account our Glorious Overlord Spider Tank is The Golden Standard Of Vanilla 3-drop. What's even more easy is to make Barnes's Battlecry a complete blowout. Tirion FordringRagnaros the FirelordCairne BloodhoofSylvanas WindrunnerMalygos. Even just a Savannah Highmane or Infested Wolf is already over-the-top enough to cause a ton of problems. Even Resurrect and Purify suddenly look good!

Low opportunity cost, high payoff, RNG frustrating for both sides. It is like Yogg-Saron, Hope's End turn 4, except it doesn't fizzle at all.

Adding Y'Shaarj, Rage Unbound to the mix makes things even worse, because people who are playing a "fair" Barnes are at least operating in value territory. I get death threats from people whom I kill in less cheesy and slower combo fashion. With free turn 4 win, everyone can feel the fairness of the game.

While a concept of a "free win" is no alien to TCG, I do not think it should belong to the universal "oops nuts draw" territory, but rather be an example of how does one makes a deck with unique angle of attack, having certain matchups very lopsided. Zoo Warlock is a free win for Freeze Mage but Control Warrior is literally unbeatable - that's a normal "free win" set-up.

 


26 other cards in the deck are fine. A nice meme deck overall.

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There's not really a free win in this deck: it's just fun to play.  Even if you play Barnes on turn 3/4 and end up with a 3/4, 1/1 and 10/10, you are not necessarily in an auto-win situation.  And, on most plays, the combo doesn't come out.  Y'Shaarj comes out first, well, at least half the time, which isn't all that can go wrong.

It's not as bad as you're making out.

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My biggest concern is not the consistency of such interaction, but rather the sole possibility of it, which I do not believe to be a balanced and healthy gameplay. If a game is presented and sold as a competitive and e-sports product, its outcome should be decided by skill, not the order of your draws. The concept of TCG presents enough variance as it is.

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9 hours ago, Paracel said:

its outcome should be decided by skill

If this is your complaint, then Barnes is not your only problem.  Chess is pure skill: Hearthstone is heavily loaded with variance in so many ways it would be strange to have to list them.  We're drawing cards from a deck, is the first thing, and a core mechanic.  The decks are different: massive variance.  So many cards rely on random effects.

There's a deck that celebrates the random madness of the game here: http://www.icy-veins.com/hearthstone/randuin-wrynn-priest-deck

Removing all the variance I don't know what would be left.

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5 hours ago, mimech said:

 We're drawing cards from a deck, is the first thing, and a core mechanic.  The decks are different: massive variance.  

That's precisely what I said. I double-check my posts when I'm complaining about balance.

14 hours ago, Paracel said:

The concept of TCG presents enough variance as it is.

 

5 hours ago, mimech said:

Chess is pure skill: Hearthstone is heavily loaded with variance in so many ways it would be strange to have to list them.  

Removing all the variance I don't know what would be left.

What would be left is an actually good, World of Warcraft -flavored Chess with normal TCG variance. RNG is as much fun as actually winning because you did the right thing.

What I meant to point out is that cards with the word "random" in them are really hard to balance out and really easy to break. It feels fine yet stil NaCl generating when it's a relatively low impact or low variance, like Knife Juggler. Barnes is exactly the other side of spectrum.

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22 hours ago, mimech said:

If this is your complaint, then Barnes is not your only problem.  Chess is pure skill: Hearthstone is heavily loaded with variance in so many ways it would be strange to have to list them.  We're drawing cards from a deck, is the first thing, and a core mechanic.  The decks are different: massive variance.  So many cards rely on random effects.

There's a deck that celebrates the random madness of the game here: http://www.icy-veins.com/hearthstone/randuin-wrynn-priest-deck

Removing all the variance I don't know what would be left.

Just because there's variance involved in every card game, doesn't mean it should be taken to extremes like barnes or yogg. If some variance is present, the better players are still likely to win games against the inferior ones, with the odd loss here and there to nutty draws by their opponent. But it seems that with every expansion so far they are pushing the game towards being more coin flippy, not the other way around.

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2 hours ago, JooBatanete said:

Just because there's variance involved in every card game, doesn't mean it should be taken to extremes like barnes or yogg

As it's being explained to me, I'm understanding the subtleties better.  I've been ignoring Yogg as a sort of way out there chaos engine, but as time's gone on, I've been watching streamers get fairly solid positive results with the card.

I think time will tell with Barnes.  This particular Hunter build doesn't seem too OP to me, but then maybe I'm just playing it poorly.  I'm not sure if I've lost any match where the combo comes up - the opponent has to spend too many resources removing it to allow them to survive for long.  My win rate when I don't get the combo is a lot worse (and definitely under 50%).  

So: does the crutch of having no other minions but Barnes and Y'Shaarj outweigh the ridiculous combo?

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My problem with Barnes is not randomness. I like randomness. Evolve is my favourite card. My problem with Barnes is his power. Make him 4 mana 3\3 and let it generate 0\1 copy of some random minion in your deck and I have zero problem with it. You still like your minions with active\inspire\end of the turn abilities. You still have your powerful deathrattles but it is a bit harder to pop them. And you are not happy if you get 3\3 and vanilla 0\1 on turn 4.  One\few minions decks like this one require players to do sacrifices, Yeti that can win you a game on spot, requires few sacrifices.

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6 hours ago, Strongpoint said:

My problem with Barnes is not randomness. I like randomness. Evolve is my favourite card. My problem with Barnes is his power. Make him 4 mana 3\3 and let it generate 0\1 copy of some random minion in your deck and I have zero problem with it. You still like your minions with active\inspire\end of the turn abilities. You still have your powerful deathrattles but it is a bit harder to pop them. And you are not happy if you get 3\3 and vanilla 0\1 on turn 4.  One\few minions decks like this one require players to do sacrifices, Yeti that can win you a game on spot, requires few sacrifices.

A step in the right direction, but a 0/1 Malygos/Tharassian can still end a game.

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On 06.09.2016 at 3:37 AM, JooBatanete said:

Just because there's variance involved in every card game, doesn't mean it should be taken to extremes like barnes or yogg. If some variance is present, the better players are still likely to win games against the inferior ones, with the odd loss here and there to nutty draws by their opponent. But it seems that with every expansion so far they are pushing the game towards being more coin flippy, not the other way around.

Barnes would be a coinflip if he either lost or win the game. he doesn't work like that. Barnes either give the player a decent, good, very good, or game winning result.  This is awful even for guys like me who like gambling. I want to make decision and take calculated risks, not have "I got Barnes, time for a free win chance" to win

Barnes is a Tuskar totemic squared. I would love Tuskar totemic if we had one or two awful totems to roll.  

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On 9/24/2016 at 2:17 PM, Strongpoint said:

 

Barnes would be a coinflip if he either lost or win the game. he doesn't work like that. Barnes either give the player a decent, good, very good, or game winning result.  This is awful even for guys like me who like gambling. I want to make decision and take calculated risks, not have "I got Barnes, time for a free win chance" to win

Barnes is a Tuskar totemic squared. I would love Tuskar totemic if we had one or two awful totems to roll.  

So you want it nerfed because it works too well for you? I can't remember the last time I saw a Mana Tide/Flametongue from TT :(

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On 26.09.2016 at 2:47 AM, Blainie said:

So you want it nerfed because it works too well for you? I can't remember the last time I saw a Mana Tide/Flametongue from TT :(

I want it nerfed because even with my 3 month experience of hearthstone it is obvious that it is too strong. Blizzard does nerf it to summoning only basic totems and it seems fine but this makes card far less fun for me. 

Question is - when Barnes will get nerfed? :D

 

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2 hours ago, Strongpoint said:

 

I want it nerfed because even with my 3 month experience of hearthstone it is obvious that it is too strong. Blizzard does nerf it to summoning only basic totems and it seems fine but this makes card far less fun for me. 

Question is - when Barnes will get nerfed? :D

 

How exactly does one propose they Nerf Barnes? I keep hearing people say this but I haven't seen any suggestions as to what he would read after the Nerf. 

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On 9/28/2016 at 9:08 PM, KingMe said:

How exactly does one propose they Nerf Barnes? I keep hearing people say this but I haven't seen any suggestions as to what he would read after the Nerf. 

Lower stats is often a big hope, since right now he is at worst a Yeti, at best he could be anything.

Maybe going down to a 3/3 that spawns a 0/1. I think that's one of the main propositions.

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3 hours ago, Blainie said:

Lower stats is often a big hope, since right now he is at worst a Yeti, at best he could be anything.

Maybe going down to a 3/3 that spawns a 0/1. I think that's one of the main propositions.

That's actually not too bad of a proposition. Even a 3/3 - 1/1 would be an improvement. Either way he would still be a broken card with those stats. As crazy as Blizzard is with their nerfs, I see them dropping him down to a 2/2 maybe a 2/3 while keep the spawn at 1/1. 

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On 10/3/2016 at 7:08 AM, KingMe said:

That's actually not too bad of a proposition. Even a 3/3 - 1/1 would be an improvement. Either way he would still be a broken card with those stats. As crazy as Blizzard is with their nerfs, I see them dropping him down to a 2/2 maybe a 2/3 while keep the spawn at 1/1. 

Probably yeah. I think the effect won't be touched, stats are almost guaranteed to be hit.

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The 1/1 loses all abilities (such as deathrattles, spell power or abilities that trigger at the end of turn) until the start of your turn, This way your opponent has time to kill the 1/1 before it becomes a powerful tool (Ragnaros the FirelordEmperor Thaurissan...) and disables the possibility of OTK Malygos combo in midgame. It would kill this deck, but would improve the game as whole imo.

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This is actually a very good suggestion. Gives the opposing player a chance to deal with the board state before being buried by a broken mechanic, not unlike the Patron/Worgen/Force of Nature nerfs.

 

 

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glad to see im not the only one seeing how far i can push Barnes. 

I've been mucking about with him in a Priest/resurrect deck. If he pulls up a token of something big, you can silence it to pop it right back to the original stats. If your opponent kills it, you can resurrect it back to normal size. Can you imagine starting turn 5 with TWO 10/10 YShaarj?

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On 10/6/2016 at 8:33 PM, Allegro said:

glad to see im not the only one seeing how far i can push Barnes. 

I've been mucking about with him in a Priest/resurrect deck. If he pulls up a token of something big, you can silence it to pop it right back to the original stats. If your opponent kills it, you can resurrect it back to normal size. Can you imagine starting turn 5 with TWO 10/10 YShaarj?

It would probably produce some pretty wild results!

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I've been tracking my games (rank 13-14 right now). 50% win rate with 32 games played. I can successfully trigger the Barnes-Y'Shaarj combo just under 60% of the time, and win those combos about 84%.

when i don't trigger the combo... i haven't been able to win yet

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