Tempo Rogue Standard No BrM/LoE/Kara

[Guest kabutozero]

On 5/8/2016 at 11:18 AM, Keizoku said:

Remove the Gnomish Inventor instead. The problem with switching an Argent Commander for Leeroy Jenkins is that you switch out one of the deck's most versatile cards for a pure finisher. Removing a single of the seven card draw effects (nine if you include Undercity Huckster) is better than removing one of the two "I need that minion dead NOW!" tempo swing cards. And sending good ole Leeroy to careen into a minion is a desperation measure, since he wil almost always die and he grants your opponent two Black Whelps he can immediately put to good use against you.

 

Ok , thanks

[privategsus 0]

How come that I can play that "Standard" deck only in Wild Mode?

 

[positiv2 950]

1 hour ago, privategsus said:

How come that I can play that "Standard" deck only in Wild Mode?

Most probably because of bug that has been here since the release of Standard/Wild. To fix it, you need to delete the deck and then create it again. Make sure you switch to standard collection - even if you have only standard cards in the deck, when you make it with wild collection open, it will be marked as a wild deck and you will not be able to play it in standard.

[privategsus 0]

Quote

On 8/19/2016 at 4:07 PM, positiv2 said:

Most probably because of bug that has been here since the release of Standard/Wild. To fix it, you need to delete the deck and then create it again. Make sure you switch to standard collection - even if you have only standard cards in the deck, when you make it with wild collection open, it will be marked as a wild deck and you will not be able to play it in standard.

Thanks @Positiv2, much appreciated.

Edited August 22, 2016 by privategsus

[Guest JonRC]

Can this deck really take an experienced player to legend. I'm only asking because I want a deck for the current and future standard that I can build slowly. And this seems like a good fit for someone that is trying to play on a budget.

[Guest Cryptonite17]

I've had great success with this deck! Past ten games I've gone        9-1 losing once to a midrange hunter where I opened poorly. Great for new players! I started playing in the middle of secret Pali format and have loved playing rogue. However this is the only deck I can play with rogue that I've gotten below rank 15 with because the best rogue decks cost 8000+ dust. I run -1 swarmer/+1 DID.

[Keizoku 185]

17 hours ago, Guest JonRC said:

Can this deck really take an experienced player to legend.

It can, yes. It is a really good deck. You don't need a dozen Legendaries like Sylvanas Windrunner to get there. You need to know what you are doing.

Quote

I want a deck for the current and future standard that I can build slowly. And this seems like a good fit for someone that is trying to play on a budget.

Personal experience speaking here, but I would rather point you toward this cheap Mage deck or this cheap Hunter deck as first deck to play with. This Rogue deck, while really strong, is quite 'finicky' to play; in the sense that you must correctly anticipate what deck your opponent is playing, what he will be doing and act accordingly (*). Sottle puts it whell when he says: you need to be aware of whether it is correct to maintain the fight for control of the board, or whether you should switch to all out face damage. But while this sounds straightforward enough, it really isn't.

 

(*) Do note that it is something you'll have to do whatever deck you end up playing to climb the ranks. But you might want to start out with a more 'straightforward' deck.  

[Guest JonRC]

3 hours ago, Keizoku said:

It can, yes. It is a really good deck. You don't need a dozen Legendaries like Sylvanas Windrunner to get there. You need to know what you are doing.

Personal experience speaking here, but I would rather point you toward this cheap Mage deck or this cheap Hunter deck as first deck to play with. This Rogue deck, while really strong, is quite 'finicky' to play; in the sense that you must correctly anticipate what deck your opponent is playing, what he will be doing and act accordingly (*). Sottle puts it whell when he says: you need to be aware of whether it is correct to maintain the fight for control of the board, or whether you should switch to all out face damage. But while this sounds straightforward enough, it really isn't.

 

(*) Do note that it is something you'll have to do whatever deck you end up playing to climb the ranks. But you might want to start out with a more 'straightforward' deck.  

Thank you! that makes a lot of sense.    And thank you for the recommended decks.   What i really like about this deck is that it will remain standard for the next 2 years and can only get better with the new updates along the way, as you said maybe once i have some experience under my belt i can come back to a deck like this.

 

[Paracel 165]

3 hours ago, Keizoku said:

This Rogue deck, while really strong, is quite 'finicky' to play; in the sense that you must correctly anticipate what deck your opponent is playing, what he will be doing and act accordingly (*). Sottle puts it whell when he says: you need to be aware of whether it is correct to maintain the fight for control of the board, or whether you should switch to all out face damage. But while this sounds straightforward enough, it really isn't.

This is pretty well put as well. TL;DR this deck "sucks" and you have to play tight to actually win your games. 

Now, what I mean saying "sucks" is that you wish to operate with your 30 in a really tight field of all that single-card midrange / aggression / tempo jazz the majority of Hearthstone currently plays, and your 30 is a tricky one. Tunnel Trogg and Alexstraza's Champion are both royally screwed up Hearthstone cards, and your best card is Defias Ringleader (my personal favorite since Beta, though). Yeah, beat it.

There aren't many cards individually so powerful in your deck they can carry you through simply by the virtue of being really good at Basic Hearthstone - drawing stuff, killing stuff and attacking stuff - so you as a player have to be good at Basic Hearthstone as well. No riding a 1-drop all game, no Call of the Wild slamdunks - just nickeling and diming till you get there. And when you nickel and dime a lot of things can go south, because Standard format is actually a pretty diverse Wild West.

Zoo gunslings a ton of cheap minions and that's why it feels fine - consistency and synergies. I cannot find the same level in Tempo Rogue, and individual card power too, thus you have to play it even tighter. And sometimes they have all the gas and you have all the bricks anyways.

I can't think of an angle at which Tempo Rogue efficiently attacks the metagame and has its own niche, but that's another story.

[positiv2 950]

@ParacelThe deck's best cards are not only Defias Ringleaders, but also Backstab. It is capable of creating great tempo advantage, especially when coupled with Defias Ringleader on turn 2. Backstab beats mage's Sorcerer's Apprentice and Cult Sorcerer, most of hunter's 1- and 2-drops, warlock's Flame Imp and so on. You can also combo it with Azure Drake to get rid of Kor'kron Elites and other 3-health minions. Backstab is simply one of the best cards rogue has and it is simply amazing in this deck.
To beat opponent's 1-drops, I decided to run Deadly Poison in place of Silithid Swarmers and Bloodmage Thalnos in place of Loot Hoarder. This allows me to get rid of the 3-health 1-drops and start gaining tempo so early in the game.
This deck is able to get so much tempo in the early game and stay on board against popular tempo-reliant deck, such as zoo, face shaman or tempo mage and can win quite easily against those. Of course, if you are encountering priests, control warriors, or N'zoth paladins, you won't have a good time with the deck. I use the deck to quickly climb up, just so I can fall back down with my Blood of The Ancient One decks. Sadly, the meta's recent changes caused by Karazhan have been unfortunate for this deck and it might not be viable anymore.

tl;dr: Backstab is good, try Deadly Poison, rip this deck soon

[Rubidium 7]

@positiv2 On the contrary I don't think the new Meta Changes bought about by Karazhan cause the deck to lose viability. Resurrect priest and Anyfin Paladin are very annoying to deal with, but in particular Midrange Hunter has been on the rise, and Midrange Hunter is a very favorable matchup for the Rogue to prey on as the Tempo Rogue can usually easily remove anything the midrange hunters play.

[mgoetze 6]

I'm giving this deck another go right now and I don't see anything in the Karazhan meta that makes it worse than it was before. I still maintain that my build is better, though.

-2 Silithid Swarmer

-2 Gnomish Inventor

+1 DID

+1 FoK

+2 Unearthed Raptor

[Paracel 165]

Double Raptor around mere Undercity Huckster and Loot Hoarder? See you at Sunday service in the Spider Tank Church.

[Rubidium 7]

If you are running this build with Double Loot Hoarder and double Undercity Hucksters raptor is a choice worthy of serious consideration, as well as Barnes.

 

However with Karazhan expansion out I think having 2 Silidith Swarmers and the Curator is much stronger than using Raptors as they cannot take advantage of the Curator.

 

I'm also shocked that Dark Iron Skulker did not find a place in this deck. It is such a powerful card capable of such powerful swings and does serious work against Token Druid, Hunter, Shaman, Zoolock and Tempo mage.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Rubidium

[positiv2 950]

@Paracel Sometimes Unearthed Raptor is a Spider Tank, sometimes it's a very strong card. It's not as good as Silithid Swarmer, but still okay.

On 30. 7. 2016 at 2:56 AM, Sottle said:

Regarding all the discussion about Raptor above, that change is definitely viable. I do prefer the Swarmer, I think it's a really high skill-cap card though and takes a lot of work to get right, but Raptor is definitely not much weaker at all.

 

@RubidiumDark Iron Skulker is a good tech card, but you will often be able to do the same with Fan of Knives with spell damage on board. On top of that, you will usually have a good board against those decks, so no need to include a tech card against already favourable matchups, unless you face them basically nonstop.

[JooBatanete 4]

5 hours ago, Rubidium said:

If you are running this build with Double Loot Hoarder and double Undercity Hucksters raptor is a choice worthy of serious consideration, as well as Barnes.

 

However with Karazhan expansion out I think having 2 Silidith Swarmers and the Curator is much stronger than using Raptors as they cannot take advantage of the Curator.

 

I'm also shocked that Dark Iron Skulker did not find a place in this deck. It is such a powerful card capable of such powerful swings and does serious work against Token Druid, Hunter, Shaman, Zoolock and Tempo mage.

I tried skulker before, but the card is a bit too situational for my taste. Maybe include it as a single copy instead of a gnomish if you really like the card, but I would never run 2 copies.

 

Also raptor is nowhere near as good as swarmer in this deck. People severely underestimate the importance of the 5 HP 3 drop in the current meta. 

[FanOfValeera 253]

On 28.08.2016 at 9:08 PM, JooBatanete said:

I tried skulker before, but the card is a bit too situational for my taste. Maybe include it as a single copy instead of a gnomish if you really like the card, but I would never run 2 copies.

 

Also raptor is nowhere near as good as swarmer in this deck. People severely underestimate the importance of the 5 HP 3 drop in the current meta. 

Exactly, I do not know why people debate silithid swarmer this much, as it is a great card in rogue thinking that your hero can attack consistently.

I have tried this deck, it is a good deck for sure, but with all those shamans and dragon warriors and zoo decks, I do not think it is a deck to rely on. I mostly lose against the last two, maybe there is something wrong with what i do.

[Rubidium 7]

On 8/29/2016 at 2:08 AM, JooBatanete said:

I tried skulker before, but the card is a bit too situational for my taste. Maybe include it as a single copy instead of a gnomish if you really like the card, but I would never run 2 copies.

 

Also raptor is nowhere near as good as swarmer in this deck. People severely underestimate the importance of the 5 HP 3 drop in the current meta. 

I agree that after playing various forms of tempo Rogue a lot I do like the Spider more than raptor. Another upside to the spider is that it enables you to run the Curator which is an exceptional card that both refills your hand to potentially let you finish off a slower matchup against a midrange/control deck or put up a formidable taunt against faster more aggressive decks.

I however can't count the number of times where I just dump a Skulker and completely decimate a board of 3-5 minions and pretty much win the game on the spot. You don't have to completely wipe a whole board in order for it to get value, even if you just kill a 3/2 minion with it it's already acceptable, but the times where you play it and kill a board full of Shaman totems or help small minions like Swashburglar wipe out feral spirits, or destroy a forbidden ritual.

It is a card that very often just wins games alone against Tempo Mage, Zoo Warlock, Token Druid and also often finds exceptional value against Various Shaman builds and Hunter variants.

I understand why some might feel that it is "too situational" as it is a card that when against a control meta has much more limited use. But against the most common decks found on ladder Dark Iron Skulker is exceptional

[JooBatanete 4]

8 hours ago, FanOfValeera said:

Exactly, I do not know why people debate silithid swarmer this much, as it is a great card in rogue thinking that your hero can attack consistently.

I have tried this deck, it is a good deck for sure, but with all those shamans and dragon warriors and zoo decks, I do not think it is a deck to rely on. I mostly lose against the last two, maybe there is something wrong with what i do.

If you're losing over 50% of your games against any of the aforementioned decks, you're definitely doing something wrong(or your sample size if just too small). Zoo is the worst of the 3 for me, and even then it's currently around 56% according to my stat tracker. Granted I haven't tryharded ladder in a long time, so most of my games come from ranks 10-5, but even then yeah.

Edited August 30, 2016 by JooBatanete

[Keizoku 185]

9 hours ago, FanOfValeera said:

Exactly, I do not know why people debate silithid swarmer this much, as it is a great card in rogue thinking that your hero can attack consistently.

Opportunity costs. You need to equip a dagger, which might not be the optimal use of your mana at a given moment, and you must attack before the Silithid Swarmer to activate it, resulting in sometimes completely pointless damage that will whittle you down for no real benefit. The Unearthed Raptor comes with one less health but neither of those.

10 hours ago, FanOfValeera said:

I have tried this deck, it is a good deck for sure, but with all those shamans and dragon warriors and zoo decks, I do not think it is a deck to rely on. I mostly lose against the last two, maybe there is something wrong with what i do.

As I said above, this deck is quite finicky to play. The slightest misplay can and will cost you the game as you'll find yourself floundering for control without being able to finish your opponent off. Zoo can be nightmarish to play against (or a real cakewalk if you get the perfect opening), but dragon warrior shouldn't be that much of a problem. 

[FanOfValeera 253]

6 hours ago, JooBatanete said:

If you're losing over 50% of your games against any of the aforementioned decks, you're definitely doing something wrong(or your sample size if just too small). Zoo is the worst of the 3 for me, and even then it's currently around 56% according to my stat tracker. Granted I haven't tryharded ladder in a long time, so most of my games come from ranks 10-5, but even then yeah.

Okay, after reading this, I wanted to give it a try again, and I have played 15 matches, 10 of them against aggro shaman (current meta is amazing), and against other decks I am 4-1 while against shaman I am 1-9. This deck may be good for some people, but as a player whose favourite class is rogue and has around 60% winrate with miracle rogue, I do not think this deck is playable in current meta which is full of shamans, opposing board just gets bigger with op minions and I play a 2/1 with card draw deathrattle or a 1/1 divine shield or 2/2 weird deathrattle card. 

And why do we have a tempo rogue archetype while rogue is tempo class itself?

 

[Paracel 165]

1 hour ago, FanOfValeera said:

And why do we have a tempo rogue archetype while rogue is tempo class itself?

No, no, no, you don't just throw such words around like its nothing. Tempo as a term is not working as intended since we invented it in 1999. 

Tempo is relative. Rogue as a class is absolute. You can easily engineer a Rogue deck or even just a single game where no Tempo would be present as a relevant concept. Much like every single deck ever can create Tempo advantage and win on the back of it. It's a complex thing. Miracle Rogue was conceived and is still played to its strengths as a Combo deck, while Mill Rogue(all trolling aside, it used to be a tier 1 archetype in Magic) doesn't really care about creatures, cards in hand and life totals. We can describe what those decks do using Tempo but that wouldn't be exactly accurate.

Calling Aggro-Control decks and Aggresive Midrange decks Tempo just became an inaccurate tradition, because such decks usually emphasize and utilize Tempo advantages in an efficient or obvious manner. Playing a Mana Wyrm and killing everything to ride it is obvious. Playing Emperor Thaurissan and then deploying with discount is efficient. 

We can't just name this deck "Aggro Rogue" or "Aggresive Midrange Rogue" or "Defias Ringleader.dec" because neither of those names are sleek nor exactly accurate, while naming it "Tempo Rogue" catches all while being simple. 18 years ago, we had decks named "Dread Panda Roberts", "Cocoa Pebbles" , "Trix" and "Sligh" which told you exactly nothing about the deck unless you knew them already.

[mgoetze 6]

17 hours ago, FanOfValeera said:

Exactly, I do not know why people debate silithid swarmer this much, as it is a great card in rogue thinking that your hero can attack consistently.

I have tried this deck, it is a good deck for sure, but with all those shamans and dragon warriors and zoo decks, I do not think it is a deck to rely on. I mostly lose against the last two, maybe there is something wrong with what i do.

Maybe what you're doing wrong is... using Silithid Swarmer? :P I'm 4-4 against Shaman and 4-1 against Warlock with my Raptor version (ranks 6-11).

As Keizoku said, the problem with Swarmer is opportunity cost. I refer to my example on page 1 where I have a dagger and a Swarmer, while my opponent has a Spirit Wolf and an Abusive Sergeant... which can't be cleared because you can't choose the order to attack in. Also, having to run Gnomish Inventor because you're not taking advantage of the additional card draw from Raptor (yes, even with only Loot Hoarder and Huckster I get an additional draw in about half my games) is another opportunity cost of Silithid Swarmer. I find my second Dark Iron Dwarf to be much more effective.

[FanOfValeera 253]

4 hours ago, Paracel said:

No, no, no, you don't just throw such words around like its nothing. Tempo as a term is not working as intended since we invented it in 1999. 

Tempo is relative. Rogue as a class is absolute. You can easily engineer a Rogue deck or even just a single game where no Tempo would be present as a relevant concept. Much like every single deck ever can create Tempo advantage and win on the back of it. It's a complex thing. Miracle Rogue was conceived and is still played to its strengths as a Combo deck, while Mill Rogue(all trolling aside, it used to be a tier 1 archetype in Magic) doesn't really care about creatures, cards in hand and life totals. We can describe what those decks do using Tempo but that wouldn't be exactly accurate.

Calling Aggro-Control decks and Aggresive Midrange decks Tempo just became an inaccurate tradition, because such decks usually emphasize and utilize Tempo advantages in an efficient or obvious manner. Playing a Mana Wyrm and killing everything to ride it is obvious. Playing Emperor Thaurissan and then deploying with discount is efficient. 

We can't just name this deck "Aggro Rogue" or "Aggresive Midrange Rogue" or "Defias Ringleader.dec" because neither of those names are sleek nor exactly accurate, while naming it "Tempo Rogue" catches all while being simple. 18 years ago, we had decks named "Dread Panda Roberts", "Cocoa Pebbles" , "Trix" and "Sligh" which told you exactly nothing about the deck unless you knew them already.

Tempois described as 'being ahead on board', you have board clears and good trades, combo deck can be a type, but it can't be said that a combo deck does not play in a 'tempo' style. Combo is a finishing style while tempo is play style in general. Of course we can't name aggro-control decks as tempo decks, but rogue 'as a class' cannot be really played as any of these, and most important cards in rogue class are just important because they create 'tempo swings'.  And just look at the most played decks of rogue, being miracle and deathrattle I believe, those are some of the better tempo decks out there. N'zoth maybe a combo deck only as a finisher.

My question was not a serious question, I was not really expecting a long answer :) But this is what I see from rogue. 

I should probably do some changes as there are some suggested cards, being another DID, raptor and Thalnos too, then try again. If I fail again, I'll be around for more questions:)

Thanks for the answer:)

Edited August 30, 2016 by FanOfValeera

[Guest FoeHammer]

Is there any place for Swashburglar in this deck? Seems like a fun card that might naturally be a good fit. Even if you topdeck it late in the game, you get an opponent class card right away that might be useful.

 

Does -2 Loot Hoarder +2 Swashburglar sound like a viable swap?