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Raynor & Azmodan Rework Meta Tier List (July 2018)

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Our twenty-first Heroes of the Storm Meta Tier list for the month of July is here!

We present our twenty-first Heroes of the Storm Meta Tier List for the month of July 2018.

Welcome to Icy Veins's Meta Tier List for the July 7 patch. This list also takes into account the July 25 balance patch. The goal of this list is to try and detail game's current metagame state. The prime goal of such lists is to inform players regarding popular and trending team composition drafting strategies (i.e. the drafting metagame). Although tier listings are generally the product of balance, many factors come into play when discussing the relative perceived strengths of heroes, including player regions, maps, play style, skill level, and, of course, personal perception. As such, any tier list—including this very one—should never be interpreted as gospel, but rather, as a guide to better grasp what to expect with regards to typical drafting experiences. One useful application of such lists is to allow you know which heroes to look out for in terms of practice and counterplay, ultimately improving your knowledge of the game.

Using the list

Spoiler

As stated above, tier lists are easy to mistake for gospel. As new strategies are discovered and experimented with, so changes the perception of the relative strengths of each hero. Tier lists still prove to be useful as a snapshot of player expectations in terms of drafting. Although it is generally considered preferable to focus on high tier heroes (Prime and Core tiers), it is important to note that Heroes of the Storm's wild character and map designs make it so that any given hero's tier position is prone to fluctuate depending on the situation at hand.

One classic example of such is that of Kerrigan on the Infernal Shrines map. Although we currently judge her to be a mid-tier hero, her drafting priority shoots up to first-pick or first-ban material on this specific map due to the nature of its objective. Certain heroes also synergise so well with each other that the sole fact of having the opportunity of drafting them together is generally enough to increase their potential. Tassadar and Tracer, for instance, are generally nightmarish to deal with for many. There are too many examples of these interactions to reasonably produce here, but we invite you to consult our guides to know exactly where and when each hero shines. The guides have been linked in the lists below for your convenience - just click any of the hero names to access them.

A  next to a hero's name means its tier list position has increased since the previous month whereas a  means just the opposite. Additionally, a + or - sign indicates short-to-medium term predictions (which is to say, about a month) for tier increase(s) or decrease(s), respectively. These are often updated after significant balance patches and/or when clear trends are emerging. The (ban) comment is a ban recommendation; Meta heroes should be picked and banned first, though heroes from other groups should be considered as well depending on how team compositions are shaping up.

If you're newer to the game, also consider visiting our glossary for a comprehensive list of discrete Heroes of the Storm terms.

 

Current ranked mode map rotation

 
  • Alterac Pass (new)
  • Battlefield of Eternity
  • Braxis Holdout
  • Cursed Hollow
  • Dragon Shire
  • Infernal Shrines
  • Sky Temple
  • Tomb of the Spider Queen
  • Towers of Doom
  • Volskaya Foundry

 

Meta picks

Tank Bruiser Fighter Stalker Marksman Mage Support Healer
      Genji (ban) Raynor (ban)     Deckard (ban)

 

High-tier generalists

Tank Bruiser Fighter Stalker Marksman Mage Support Healer
Diablo (ban) Dehaka (ban)     Cassia  Azmodan↑ (ban)   Alexstrasza (ban)
Garrosh (ban) Sonya     Fenix (ban) Chromie (ban)   Rehgar (ban)
Johanna Yrel (ban)↓     Hanzo (ban) Jaina   Stukov (ban)
Muradin       Sgt.Hammer Li-Ming    
VarianTaunt(ban)         Nazeebo    

 

Mid-tier generalists

Tank Bruiser Fighter Stalker Marksman Mage Support Healer
Anub'arak Artanis Alarak Tracer (ban) Greymane Gul'dan Abathur Ana
Arthas   Maiev Zeratul Lunara Junkrat   Auriel
Blaze   Malthael   Tychus Kael'thas   Kharazim
E.T.C. (ban)   Ragnaros   Zul'jin Kel'Thuzad    Li Li
Stitches   Thrall     Sylvanas   Lt. Morales
    VarianColossus Smash     Zagara   Lúcio
    VarianTwin Blades of Fury         Malfurion
    Zarya          

 

Low-tier generalists

Tank Bruiser Fighter Stalker Marksman Mage Support Healer
  Chen Gazlowe Valeera Falstad Probius Medivh Brightwing
  D.Va Murky   Tyrande      
    The Butcher   Valla      

 

Situational picks (map, team composition, or counterpick)

Tank Bruiser Fighter Stalker Marksman Mage Support Healer
Cho'gall (ban) Leoric Illidan Nova The Lost Vikings (ban) Cho'gall (ban) Tassadar Uther (ban)
Tyrael Rexxar Kerrigan Samuro        
    Xul          

 

Meta heroes define the  They are very often banned or picked right away, as they generally dictate the pace of most drafts and matches.

Generalists form the core of your team and are generally picked after Meta picks have been distributed. They tend to work on most maps, and as part of and against most team compositions. Since this group includes most heroes, I elected to split it into three tiers. High-tier rankings are a result of performance (i.e. win rates) and popularity (i.e. pick and ban rates). This means that heroes with high win rates can be set in low tier; the opposite may also be true.

Situational picks shine on specific maps or as part of specific team compositions.

 

Discussion

The July 25 balance patch brought with it a number of interesting fine-tuning changes. Although many of these changes are unlikely to affect their respective heroes, I'd still like to highlight some of them.

Azmodan: The buffs I predicted – and my excuse for not maintaining the guide up to date – finally came online. Although they are small numbers changes for the most part, the centerpiece of Azmodan's newfound power lies in in a simple ~15% increase to Globe of AnnihilationGlobe of Annihilation's base damage, at the cost of 1% scaling. Although this might sound like a tradeoff more than a buff, keep in mind that Azmodan's weakest point was his early game, and that this damage increase makes it much easier to kill minions for annihilation stacks. In case you're wondering, the new scaling makes Globe of Annihilation weaker than it was past level 17, though the additional stacks one can acquire generally makes up for it. All Shall BurnAll Shall Burn also got to benefit from some nice buffs, notably a 2-second cooldown reduction (8 to 6) making all of its talents that much more appealing, and allowing Azmodan to actually be a solo lane threat. Lastly, I suspect Hell RiftHell Rift to be pretty good following the Summon Demon WarriorSummon Demon Warrior changes (along with Army of HellArmy of Hell or Hellforged ArmorHellforged Armor and Brutish VanguardBrutish Vanguard for good measure), though it'll continue to be matchup-dependent.

Malfurion: Losing Ice BlockIce Block is soul-crushing. Besides being a great defensive talent, Ice Block was notably strong for Malfurion, allowing him to use Twilight DreamTwilight Dream aggressively or to benefit from a few TranquilityTranquility ticks while invulnerable.  Nature's SwiftnessNature's Swiftness moving in its place makes Malfurion much weaker in the early game. The new Rejuvenation talent (can't link that one yet) seems really bad on paper, and that's because it is; at level 1 and assuming a typical 3-rolling-RegrowthRegrowth setup, it gives Malfurion a "whooping" 9 health per second. The patch notes were wrong, by the way; ingame, the talent gives Malfurion 100% more base regeneration per Regrowth, not 5 flat health per second. Anyway, it's bad in both cases, on top of being pretty boring. But personal commentary aside, I think the removal of Ice Block might even kill Malfurion's competitive viability. Yikes.

Artanis: When I first read these changes, my reaction was more or less something like "okay?" After playing him however, I can't say I really feel any differently about him as a hero design-wise, but I do think he's a little bit stronger. I'm inclined to consider he might be high-tier material, but I want more data.

Cho: Cho'gall was notoriously overpowered in team league environments, where players are generally organized enough to build a team composition around a given hero, but not good enough to understand how to counter that. This makes sense, as this knowledge is locked behind, well, actually playing against these team compositions, which is obviously more rare than being able to build it yourself. Cho'gall has been the longstanding champion of team league for this reason, with Surging DashSurging Dash being one of the most busted talents in the game. In essence, it gave Cho access to Unstoppable for up to 6 seconds on a 12-second cooldown. I'd generally use this as an occasion to be snarky, but I think the numbers speak for themselves. Besides, it did end up changing, and it only took 16 months! Really can't complain here.

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raynor should be 10 tiers above anyone else..

 

i had no problem with overtuned heroes, if they are hard to play (genji tracer hanzo )

but raynor is just a joke...

the most ez hero to play, and now also the best dmg dealer in the game

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The new list is pretty amazing.

Comments:

Raynor: His rework made him pretty damn good. I wonder if he gets nerfed today. Especially his dependance on Ace in the Hole at level 1 is likely to get changed.

Sylvanas: I never realized she is a mage.

The Lost Vikings: Their meme tier is gone. 😞

Questions:

Kerrigan: is she a generalist or just a situational pick? She only really shines on a select few maps.

D.Va: The same question as for Kerrigan - D.Va strikes me as pretty situational. You draft her for the combo with a relatively specific draft, usually with the intent to combo from an Into the Fray, and before that she can hold her own as a sololaner. She feels both map dependant (Infernal Shrines) or like a combo piece to draft alongside heroes with a lot of crowd control. On the other hand, even with that crowd control it can still be very hard to get value out of her, so classifying her as a low-tier Generalist makes sense. Her bomb is a bit of a meme at this point, which reflects this.

Medivh: Is it a generalist, or a hero that you can only really play when you play with those teammates a LOT (Not just pro play, but also Team League or just playing with the same friends very frequently)?

Zul'Jin: Is he really better than Valla and Greymane? I always see them die a lot, whether I'm playing myself or watching streams from players ranked higher than me, and they don't always get value out of dying that much. Valla still has an escape as well as race potential on a map like BoE, and Greymane is still 'decent'.

Valeera: Isn't she much like Samuro in the sense that she's a situational stealth hero, that you want to pick alongside certain heroes (say, Abathur) or to punish bad drafts as a last pick (the opposing team having drafted way too many fragile heroes)?

Edited by Aasgier

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After all this time, Jimmy is meta... What a time to be alive.

Imho Fenix should be up there with the rest of them, he's pretty much pick/ban every game. But hey, if they don't think of him as stronk, that means no more or mild nerfhammer and availability to pick :>

YOU-rel (as they pronounce her ) must have had the most acute 360 turn than any other will ever have; from making her own tier and dethroning the Vikings to essentially core tier.

Didn't expect Varian's specs other than taunt that high. Also, I think the table is being kinda rough on Greymane (not his glory days anymore for sure but he is still pretty good and sees play at top level), Valla (she does reach her power spike level 20, but she can be useful in a variety of situations, excellent pvp or pve damage according to build and a good cc Heroic) and Uther (don't think he's the "worst" out of the bunch and Ana shouldn't be higher than Auriel, the latter provides better heal output which is harder to "miss" as well as better utility overall (hard cc, blinds, Heroics etc) imho (unless it's just alphabetical order :p).

The new format and classification looks pretty ok, much less space needed, nice work.

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Great list, Oxygen! Who would have thought that the Raynor rework would end up so strong? I hope he gets his deserved nerfs today.

I also think that it's worth adding Varian to the ban list, because he is a pretty darn strong counter for Fenix. Also, I think that Muradin should be on High-Tier; he still is one of the tankiest tanks in the game, and deal surprisingly high damage for a tank even if he's not talented into a Bruiser.

I like how you arranged the list this time, looks really neat. However, I think you should include a link to your own Hero categories (Marksman, Stalker, etc.) to make easier for new players to understand. I know that they are terms easy to understand, but more information is never enough.

2 hours ago, Aasgier said:

Questions:

Kerrigan: is she a generalist or just a situational pick? She only really shines on a select few maps.

D.Va: The same question as for Kerrigan - D.Va strikes me as pretty situational. You draft her for the combo with a relatively specific draft, usually with the intent to combo from an Into the Fray, and before that she can hold her own as a sololaner. She feels both map dependant (Infernal Shrines) or like a combo piece to draft alongside heroes with a lot of crowd control. On the other hand, even with that crowd control it can still be very hard to get value out of her, so classifying her as a low-tier Generalist makes sense. Her bomb is a bit of a meme at this point, which reflects this.

Medivh: Is it a generalist, or a hero that you can only really play when you play with those teammates a LOT (Not just pro play, but also Team League or just playing with the same friends very frequently)?

Zul'Jin: Is he really better than Valla and Greymane? I always see them die a lot, whether I'm playing myself or watching streams from players ranked higher than me, and they don't always get value out of dying that much. Valla still has an escape as well as race potential on a map like BoE, and Greymane is still 'decent'.

Valeera: Isn't she much like Samuro in the sense that she's a situational stealth hero, that you want to pick alongside certain heroes (say, Abathur) or to punish bad drafts as a last pick (the opposing team having drafted way too many fragile heroes)?

I think that Kerrigan has been seeing more and more plays lately, specially in the current meta, with dive compositions featuring Diablo, Muradin and Genji where she can really follow-up and deal eye-watering damage.

Medivh functions pretty good in all modes as long you know how to use him. I'd say he is one of those Heroes that fit into pretty much any team given his high utility. You can use him in Dive compositions by setting portals to create gank opportunities, you can play extremely defensively alongside the main Healer to create an impassable barrier, etc. He is just hard to play, but when mastered it is extremely frustrating to deal with.

Zul'jin is better because of his endgame potential that can outclass both Valla and Greymane, as long he completes his trait quest as soon as possible. He is my main Assassin, and I always use the Twin Cleave build and by the end of the games I'm usually doing at least twice the Hero damage of the highest damage dealer in the enemy team, as well having the highest siege damage. He is THAT strong. However, he is a "high risk high reward" Hero, given the mechanics of his trait, and he also lacks the mobility that Valla and Greymane have, therefore you must be mindful of your positioning. In a 1v1 situation he is probably outclassed by both, but in teams he shreds everything with Twin Cleaves melting forts faster than any other Hero.

Valeera is... Tricky. She currently sits at a spot where a lot of Heroes can outperform her damage and crowd control without having to go sneaky-sneaky. However, she still is a decent ganking Hero in maps that require a lot of roaming and rotation, to catch those squishy mages and healers. But she only shines in coordinated teams that can cause havoc in the frontline to leave the backline exposed, where she can do her job.

Edited by Valhalen

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I wouldn't put Blaze, Dehaka, Chen and Rexxar on 'tank' category. They're definitely more of a bruiser. 

Zarya is a support, like Tassader. She's nowhere near a bruiser.

Genji is definitely a stalker instead of marksman.

Thrall, Malthael and Ragnaros should be bruisers too, since they're usually drafted as a solo laner, like Sonya and Blaze. 

Leoric and Tyrael at bottom? I think they're far from it. At least Mid-tier.

Muradin and Johanna has been seeing a lot of plays lately, to the point where they're often first picked, and priorities over those 'meta' and 'high tier' tanks like Garrosh and ETC. I'd actually put them in 'Meta picks'

I do think there're too much 'generalist' tiers. I'd suggest changing 'Low-tier Generalists' to 'Situational picks' (either map-specific picks or counter-picks), and the current 'Situational picks' to 'Niche picks' (heroes that need a team comp to build around them). 

Edited by ShadowerDerek

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Just now, ShadowerDerek said:

I wouldn't put Blaze, Dehaka, Chen and Rexxar on 'tank' category. They're definitely more of a bruiser. 

Zarya is a support, like Tassader. She's nowhere near a bruiser.

Genji is definitely a stalker instead of marksman.

Thrall, Malthael and Ragnaros should be bruisers too, since they're usually drafted as a solo laner, like Sonya and Blaze. 

Leoric and Tyrael at bottom? I think they're far from it. At least Mid-tier.

I do think there're too much 'generalist' tiers. I'd suggest changing 'Low-tier Generalists' to 'Situational picks' (either map-specific picks or counter-picks), and the current 'Situational picks' to 'Niche picks' (heroes that need a team comp to build around them). 

I agree with Dehaka, Chen and Rexxar, but Blaze is definitely a tank.

Zarya is tricky because she sits in between Bruiser and Support, and she can deal A LOT of damage, which is something Supports can't do. Putting her in the Support tab would be confusing since she is very "tanky".

I agree with the rest, but I think it's ok to have various tiers of "generalists".

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2 minutes ago, Valhalen said:

I agree with Dehaka, Chen and Rexxar, but Blaze is definitely a tank.

Zarya is tricky because she sits in between Bruiser and Support, and she can deal A LOT of damage, which is something Supports can't do. Putting her in the Support tab would be confusing since she is very "tanky".

Bruisers are typically picked as a dedicated off-laner, with strong waveclear and self-sustain. Blaze currently is picked as a off-laner most of the time, so he fits in the bruiser category better. He is tanky, but that doesn't mean he's a 'tank'.

Zarya has a significantly different role than typical bruisers: she's much better at 4-man, shielding allies and putting out some poke damage. 'Supports' can deal a good amount of damage in certain situations. 

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2 hours ago, Aasgier said:

Sylvanas: I never realized she is a mage.

She and Zagara. I think they're a mix between markswomen and mages.

1 hour ago, SteveFrost said:

Imho Fenix should be up there with the rest of them, he's pretty much pick/ban every game. But hey, if they don't think of him as stronk, that means no more or mild nerfhammer and availability to pick :>

Agree. He has amazing synergy with Raynor, because they both can slow heroes, AND deal increased damage to slowed heroes. 

1 hour ago, SteveFrost said:

YOU-rel (as they pronounce her ) must have had the most acute 360 turn than any other will ever have; from making her own tier and dethroning the Vikings to essentially core tier.

People just didn't know how to play her, and misjudged her potential. Similar case to Hanzo: initially considered to be 'weak', then Blizzard buffed them because of rants from the community, and they 'suddenly' become top-tier.

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2 minutes ago, mada7 said:

I'm kinda curious why some of the situational picks would be suggested for bans (and when they should be banned)

Situational is not bad. Uther for example can be really strong in the right composition, yet also one of the worst supports in the wrong one. The Golden Dragon (Uther's Divine Shield on Genji's Dragonblade) is a rather infamous combination, for example.

But in many, many compositions, there's no worse healer to draft than Uther.

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26 minutes ago, DimensionDerper said:

I mean, after so long without a rework, Jimmy deserves to be top tier now, right?

He definitely does, but Blizzard went a bit overboard, because he is dealing way too much damage for a Hero that is so easy to play and got so many tools to improve his mobility and survivability. Not even Fenix and Maiev reached 60% winrate with 85% popularity. I've been playing him lately and feels disgusting; I feel that I'm losing my balls gradually in every game.

24 minutes ago, Aasgier said:

Situational is not bad. Uther for example can be really strong in the right composition, yet also one of the worst supports in the wrong one. The Golden Dragon (Uther's Divine Shield on Genji's Dragonblade) is a rather infamous combination, for example.

But in many, many compositions, there's no worse healer to draft than Uther.

What fucks up Uther in his holy ass is sustained damage, which is a really proeminent part of the meta at the moment. He has to be a last pick because the enemy team can draft a Lunara or something similar and make him burn all that mana.

Edited by Valhalen

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I feel like there should be some sort of discussion for laning specialists. Nazeebo, for example, NEEDS to lane and can often take down structures solo whereas chromie needs to fight for her quest

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5 hours ago, Aasgier said:

The new list is pretty amazing.

Questions:

Kerrigan: is she a generalist or just a situational pick? She only really shines on a select few maps.

D.Va: The same question as for Kerrigan - D.Va strikes me as pretty situational. You draft her for the combo with a relatively specific draft, usually with the intent to combo from an Into the Fray, and before that she can hold her own as a sololaner. She feels both map dependant (Infernal Shrines) or like a combo piece to draft alongside heroes with a lot of crowd control. On the other hand, even with that crowd control it can still be very hard to get value out of her, so classifying her as a low-tier Generalist makes sense. Her bomb is a bit of a meme at this point, which reflects this.

Medivh: Is it a generalist, or a hero that you can only really play when you play with those teammates a LOT (Not just pro play, but also Team League or just playing with the same friends very frequently)?

Zul'Jin: Is he really better than Valla and Greymane? I always see them die a lot, whether I'm playing myself or watching streams from players ranked higher than me, and they don't always get value out of dying that much. Valla still has an escape as well as race potential on a map like BoE, and Greymane is still 'decent'.

Valeera: Isn't she much like Samuro in the sense that she's a situational stealth hero, that you want to pick alongside certain heroes (say, Abathur) or to punish bad drafts as a last pick (the opposing team having drafted way too many fragile heroes)?

Kerrigan: Worth considering as situational. I hestitated.

D.Va: Agreed.

Medivh: I think his high skill cap (and floor) defines him more than "situationality."

Zul'jin: I think I might make him situational as a double tank counter.

Valeera: I think comparing her to Samuro is an easy mistake to make. Samuro is a late-game brute with strong mercenary control and PvE damage output. Valeera is pretty different.

3 hours ago, Valhalen said:

Great list, Oxygen! Who would have thought that the Raynor rework would end up so strong? I hope he gets his deserved nerfs today.

I also think that it's worth adding Varian to the ban list, because he is a pretty darn strong counter for Fenix. Also, I think that Muradin should be on High-Tier; he still is one of the tankiest tanks in the game, and deal surprisingly high damage for a tank even if he's not talented into a Bruiser.

I like how you arranged the list this time, looks really neat. However, I think you should include a link to your own Hero categories (Marksman, Stalker, etc.) to make easier for new players to understand. I know that they are terms easy to understand, but more information is never enough.

I think that Kerrigan has been seeing more and more plays lately, specially in the current meta, with dive compositions featuring Diablo, Muradin and Genji where she can really follow-up and deal eye-watering damage.

Medivh functions pretty good in all modes as long you know how to use him. I'd say he is one of those Heroes that fit into pretty much any team given his high utility. You can use him in Dive compositions by setting portals to create gank opportunities, you can play extremely defensively alongside the main Healer to create an impassable barrier, etc. He is just hard to play, but when mastered it is extremely frustrating to deal with.

Zul'jin is better because of his endgame potential that can outclass both Valla and Greymane, as long he completes his trait quest as soon as possible. He is my main Assassin, and I always use the Twin Cleave build and by the end of the games I'm usually doing at least twice the Hero damage of the highest damage dealer in the enemy team, as well having the highest siege damage. He is THAT strong. However, he is a "high risk high reward" Hero, given the mechanics of his trait, and he also lacks the mobility that Valla and Greymane have, therefore you must be mindful of your positioning. In a 1v1 situation he is probably outclassed by both, but in teams he shreds everything with Twin Cleaves melting forts faster than any other Hero.

Valeera is... Tricky. She currently sits at a spot where a lot of Heroes can outperform her damage and crowd control without having to go sneaky-sneaky. However, she still is a decent ganking Hero in maps that require a lot of roaming and rotation, to catch those squishy mages and healers. But she only shines in coordinated teams that can cause havoc in the frontline to leave the backline exposed, where she can do her job.

 

Varian: I added him to the tank banlist exclusively as this is what you want to play around the most. If your opponents have two tanks already, you're probably not worried about banning Varian.

Link to categories: I certainly want to convey the info better without overwhelming readers. I'll see to it.

Zul'jin: Better than Valla for sure, but probably situational as stated above.
 

3 hours ago, ShadowerDerek said:

I wouldn't put Blaze, Dehaka, Chen and Rexxar on 'tank' category. They're definitely more of a bruiser. 

Zarya is a support, like Tassader. She's nowhere near a bruiser.

Genji is definitely a stalker instead of marksman.

Thrall, Malthael and Ragnaros should be bruisers too, since they're usually drafted as a solo laner, like Sonya and Blaze. 

Leoric and Tyrael at bottom? I think they're far from it. At least Mid-tier.

Muradin and Johanna has been seeing a lot of plays lately, to the point where they're often first picked, and priorities over those 'meta' and 'high tier' tanks like Garrosh and ETC. I'd actually put them in 'Meta picks'

I do think there're too much 'generalist' tiers. I'd suggest changing 'Low-tier Generalists' to 'Situational picks' (either map-specific picks or counter-picks), and the current 'Situational picks' to 'Niche picks' (heroes that need a team comp to build around them). 

Bruisers: Agreed for Chen, definitely an oversight. Disagreed for the rest. What defines a tank is their ability to engage "on demand" and non-heroic crowd control to enable follow up. Chen doesn't have that, so it's fine; the others do.

Zarya: Debatable. I see classes as a "how you play" rather than "what your goal is." Even if Zarya supports others, she's still right behind the tank.

Genji: I meant to have him as a stalker for sure; I even gave him as an example last thread. Good catch.

Thrall, Mal, Rag: Bruiser isn't defined by your laning role.

Muradin and Jo: I hesitated, but I might very well do that. Good call.

Low-tier generalists: Stuff like Valla isn't really situational; if she just got a 10% buff across all damage, she'd be right back into getting 
picked pretty much anywhere. She's just weak, not specialized.
 

2 hours ago, mada7 said:

I'm kinda curious why some of the situational picks would be suggested for bans (and when they should be banned)

Situational picks tend to make or break (read: enable) certain team compositions or combos. Banning them at the right time is devastating.

39 minutes ago, SMOrcMan said:

I feel like there should be some sort of discussion for laning specialists. Nazeebo, for example, NEEDS to lane and can often take down structures solo whereas chromie needs to fight for her quest

I'll see. In a sense, I don't want to overbloat the already bloated list.

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I think Yrel should be moved up a tier.  She is better than Sonya IMO.  Also, I feel like Naz is a tier too high.  He isn't better than Zag or Az IMO.

Also, I agree there is some fuzziness on tank vs bruiser.  I consider Stitch more of a bruiser myself, as his best build is poison usually.  I would consider dehaka a bruiser as well.  Anub, not sure.  He isn't a solo laner and doesn't do much dps, so maybe he is a tank.  But he plays more like Yrel.  So maybe she should be considered a tank?

But good list!

Edited by ArtVandelay

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1 hour ago, Oxygen said:

Kerrigan: Worth considering as situational. I hestitated.

D.Va: Agreed.

Medivh: I think his high skill cap (and floor) defines him more than "situationality."

Zul'jin: I think I might make him situational as a double tank counter.

Valeera: I think comparing her to Samuro is an easy mistake to make. Samuro is a late-game brute with strong mercenary control and PvE damage output. Valeera is pretty different.

Medivh: Fair enough.

Zul'jin: I have no opinion on this. Not enough experience with playing Zul'jin, only with killing them. 😛

Valeera: The only reason I compared them was because they are both stealth heroes that feel situational to me, but yes, it is for different reasons. If anything, Valeera feels a lot more situational than Samuro considering how dependant drafting her is on the opposing team composition (which probably restricts her to being a last-pick unless you are extremely good with Valeera).

Edited by Aasgier

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My favourite part about this new tier list format is how many people commenting didn't bother to read the description of how the generalist tiers work.

It's based on win rate AND popularity.

So saying, "this character is better than that character because blah blah blah" is pointless because the generalists are all basically on the same tier, just divided by....win rate and popularity!!!

Edited by MrPumpson

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8 minutes ago, MrPumpson said:

My favourite part about this new tier list format is how many people commenting didn't bother to read the description of how the generalist tiers work.

It's based on win rate AND popularity.

So saying, "this character is better than that character because blah blah blah" is pointless because the generalists are all basically on the same tier, just divided by....win rate and popularity!!!

Except that Zag has a higher win rate than Naz (%3).  So how is she a tier below him?  Just because he is taken twice as often?

Edited by ArtVandelay

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2 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Except that Zag has a higher win rate than Naz.  So how is she a tier below him?

Win rate AND popularity

Zeeb is picked about 3 times as often as Zag.

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%5 vs %12 is not 3 times, but that is splitting hairs.  Yrel is picked more than 3 times as much as Sonya (%70 vs %20), and has a higher win rate (but similar).  So why is the same logic not applied there?

Zag is picked 4 times as much as Sylv, and has a %5 higher win rate, yet they are the same tier?

Grey is picked twice as often as Zuljin, and they have similar win rates, yet Zul is a tier higher?

Not trying to be a dick, just responding to your it is about the numbers and not objective opinion logic.  It doesn't appear to be the case across the board.   You were a little harsh about us 'not reading the methodology' of the list and dismissed our questions.

 

 

Edited by ArtVandelay
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31 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

%5 vs %12 is not 3 times, but that is splitting hairs.  Yrel is picked more than 3 times as much as Sonya (%70 vs %20), and has a higher win rate (but similar).  So why is the same logic not applied there?

Zag is picked 4 times as much as Sylv, and has a %5 higher win rate, yet they are the same tier?

Grey is picked twice as often as Zuljin, and they have similar win rates, yet Zul is a tier higher?

Not trying to be a dick, just responding to your it is about the numbers and not objective opinion logic.  It doesn't appear to be the case across the board.   You were a little harsh about us 'not reading the methodology' of the list and dismissed our questions.

 

 

There's definitely fuzziness and my personal perception at play. Remember that I also use high level stats here, not overall stats. I'll do a second pass tonight. Good insights here.

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